Discussion:
Lord of the Rings stats for D&D
(too old to reply)
Rump Ranger
2005-01-07 14:43:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Has anyone here bothered to put out some well thought out stats as to
major characters of Middle-Earth? As a purely mental experiment of
course. What would you say would be the stats of, say Sauron or the
Ringwraiths?

IMO, Gandalf would be an Outsider with a Celestial Template and several
levels of bard added (I know he's a wizard but Tolkien wasn't using D&D
classes when he wrote about Gandalf. He fits bard pretty well: he can
heal, cast evocations, can inspire people, and is a loremaster). Then
again, we never really see Gandalf's true power. His job was to
inspire the peoples of ME to fight for themselves. Outsider HD would be
used to give him the high BAB he has (they fight as well as fighters
and Gandalf fought as well as anyone). How many HD he has is beyond me
(I'd say epic levels).

Aragorn- no brainer as a fighter with mostly ranger levels. Something
along the lines of a fighter 4 (for weapon specialization) and like
12-16 levels of ranger. Throw in the leadership feat and include a
sub-race for humans (Numenoreans) and I'd say you can model him well.

Gimli- another no brainer, fighter who specialized in axes with a level
near 20. He seems pretty epic from the books.

Legolas- he's tough because Tolkien elves aren't D&D elves but he'd no
doubt be a fighter (not an arcane archer) with maxed out archery skills
and around 20th level or so (he's nearly equal to Aragorn and Gimli).

Bilbo Baggins- a couple levels of commoner (because at the beginning of
the Hobbit he doesn't know much), a few levels of rogue (for his
adventures with the dwarves) and then expert with lots of ranks in
poetry and knowledge (I won't classify him as a bard because he doesn't
cast spells). Power level's hard to tell.

Frodo Baggins- starts off with expert levels (he's a cut above normal
hobbits because he lived with Bilbo and learned a lot from him). Only
problem is what he becomes when he goes on his journey. He doesn't
seem to fit rogue nor does he seem to fit fighter. Maybe more expert
levels?

Samwise- starts off as commoner with gardening maxed out and gains a
few levels of fighter. He's capable of holding his own against Shelob
which has to count for something.

Merry and Pippen- both start as commoners and easily become fighters as
Merry becomes a Rider of the Rohirrim and Pippen becomes a knight of
Gondor.

Saruman is simliar to Gandalf with a permanent charm effect on his
voice and enchanter levels. An outsider all the way.

Rhadagast, although little talked about, is also an Istari. Sounds
like he has druid levels (Gandalf said he was well versed in herbs,
shapes, and in making friends with beasts).

Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters

Faramir is a tough one to classify. Possible ranger (because of his
knowledge of the woods of Ithilien), fighter (his great skill), or a
paladin (because he was so good and people saw it despite the movies
making him out to be a prick).

I'm at a loss for Sauron (who's pretty a damn powerful outsider in any
case). What about Elrond or Galadriel?

What say you all?
David Alex Lamb
2005-01-07 15:51:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Rump Ranger
Has anyone here bothered to put out some well thought out stats as to
major characters of Middle-Earth? As a purely mental experiment of
course. What would you say would be the stats of, say Sauron or the
Ringwraiths?
IMO, Gandalf would be an Outsider with a Celestial Template and several
levels of bard added (I know he's a wizard but Tolkien wasn't using D&D
classes when he wrote about Gandalf. He fits bard pretty well: he can
heal, cast evocations, can inspire people, and is a loremaster). Then
again, we never really see Gandalf's true power. His job was to
inspire the peoples of ME to fight for themselves. Outsider HD would be
used to give him the high BAB he has (they fight as well as fighters
and Gandalf fought as well as anyone). How many HD he has is beyond me
(I'd say epic levels).
There are two versions of Gandalf, before and after slaying the Balrog. He
was (relatively) easily captured by Saruman the first time around, but
shattered S.' staff with a brief word the second time around.
Post by Rump Ranger
Legolas- he's tough because Tolkien elves aren't D&D elves but he'd no
doubt be a fighter (not an arcane archer) with maxed out archery skills
and around 20th level or so (he's nearly equal to Aragorn and Gimli).
The movie version also needs some acrobatics, but the book version doesn't as
far as I recall.
Post by Rump Ranger
Bilbo Baggins- a couple levels of commoner (because at the beginning of
the Hobbit he doesn't know much), a few levels of rogue (for his
adventures with the dwarves) and then expert with lots of ranks in
poetry and knowledge (I won't classify him as a bard because he doesn't
cast spells). Power level's hard to tell.
I think you could go with rogue from the beginning, since Bilbo was taken on
as a 'burglar'.
Post by Rump Ranger
Frodo Baggins- starts off with expert levels (he's a cut above normal
hobbits because he lived with Bilbo and learned a lot from him). Only
problem is what he becomes when he goes on his journey. He doesn't
seem to fit rogue nor does he seem to fit fighter. Maybe more expert
levels?
Frodo is problematic. I don't know what to do with him either. He has to
have enough levels to be able to resist the Ring for a long while, but not so
many that he can't eventually fail.
Post by Rump Ranger
Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters
What about Eowen?
Post by Rump Ranger
I'm at a loss for Sauron (who's pretty a damn powerful outsider in any
case). What about Elrond or Galadriel?
Elrond may have some fighter levels; he was Gil-Galad's herald at the battle
where Isildur cut the ring from Sauron's hand. He could command the Bruinen
(?) river near Rivendell, and heal Frodo, so perhaps some levels of Druid?

The ones I clipped seem reasonable to me.

One question that occurs to me: does MERP give statistics for the major
characters and, if so, how close did they come to what you've suggested?
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
Rump Ranger
2005-01-07 17:19:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Alex Lamb
Post by Rump Ranger
Has anyone here bothered to put out some well thought out stats as to
major characters of Middle-Earth? As a purely mental experiment of
course. What would you say would be the stats of, say Sauron or the
Ringwraiths?
IMO, Gandalf would be an Outsider with a Celestial Template and several
levels of bard added (I know he's a wizard but Tolkien wasn't using D&D
classes when he wrote about Gandalf. He fits bard pretty well: he can
heal, cast evocations, can inspire people, and is a loremaster).
Then
Post by David Alex Lamb
Post by Rump Ranger
again, we never really see Gandalf's true power. His job was to
inspire the peoples of ME to fight for themselves. Outsider HD would be
used to give him the high BAB he has (they fight as well as fighters
and Gandalf fought as well as anyone). How many HD he has is beyond me
(I'd say epic levels).
There are two versions of Gandalf, before and after slaying the Balrog. He
was (relatively) easily captured by Saruman the first time around, but
shattered S.' staff with a brief word the second time around.
True enough. Gandalf the Grey certainly wasn't as powerful as Gandalf
the White.
Post by David Alex Lamb
Post by Rump Ranger
Legolas- he's tough because Tolkien elves aren't D&D elves but he'd no
doubt be a fighter (not an arcane archer) with maxed out archery skills
and around 20th level or so (he's nearly equal to Aragorn and
Gimli).
Post by David Alex Lamb
The movie version also needs some acrobatics, but the book version doesn't as
far as I recall.
Well, in the books Tolkien doesn't get too much into specifics on
Legolas in combat other than to say he was one hell of a shot with his
bow. The movies had him doing some real acrobatic things and I
wouldn't be suprised if he was acrobatic in the book version. He also
would have some ranks in perform (song) because he was a great singer.
Post by David Alex Lamb
Post by Rump Ranger
Bilbo Baggins- a couple levels of commoner (because at the beginning of
the Hobbit he doesn't know much), a few levels of rogue (for his
adventures with the dwarves) and then expert with lots of ranks in
poetry and knowledge (I won't classify him as a bard because he doesn't
cast spells). Power level's hard to tell.
I think you could go with rogue from the beginning, since Bilbo was taken on
as a 'burglar'.
Disagree. Bilbo starts as a commoner. No real world skills (outside
of maybe cooking and smoking) and he was literally pushed out his door
by Gandalf despite the dwarves thinking he wasn't going to be all that
good of a companion. If he was a rogue, I don't know where he would
have learned any of his skills. After doing some of the adventures,
I'd say he progressed into rogue. Gandalf knew for some reason that
he'd do something big.
Post by David Alex Lamb
Post by Rump Ranger
Frodo Baggins- starts off with expert levels (he's a cut above normal
hobbits because he lived with Bilbo and learned a lot from him).
Only
Post by David Alex Lamb
Post by Rump Ranger
problem is what he becomes when he goes on his journey. He doesn't
seem to fit rogue nor does he seem to fit fighter. Maybe more expert
levels?
Frodo is problematic. I don't know what to do with him either. He has to
have enough levels to be able to resist the Ring for a long while, but not so
many that he can't eventually fail.
Will saves, I'd agree. But as far as class skills, he didn't do any
fighting and he didn't seem like much of a sneak. A regular guy caught
up in all that (and he eventually did fail and was only saved by
Gollum). I'd say the Ring doesn't assert itself until it wishes to
stay with Frodo and in all cases he failed. Remember, he was thinking
of hitting Bilbo at Rivendell when Bilbo wanted to check out the Ring
and even came on two occasions IIRC to coming to blows with Sam over
the Ring. It's obvious Frodo would never part with it willingly (Bilbo
did with Gandalf's help). Tolkien made it clear in many parts during
his journey that he had doubts as to whether he'd throw it into the
Crack of Doom when the time came.

Sam was the only person in the history of the Ring to give it to
another person willingly (Bilbo dropped it on the floor).
Post by David Alex Lamb
Post by Rump Ranger
Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters
What about Eowen?
Forgot about her. She's a fighter but she's pretty special being able
to smite the Witch King. Although Merry's barrow-blade had something
to do with it.
Post by David Alex Lamb
Post by Rump Ranger
I'm at a loss for Sauron (who's pretty a damn powerful outsider in any
case). What about Elrond or Galadriel?
Elrond may have some fighter levels; he was Gil-Galad's herald at the battle
where Isildur cut the ring from Sauron's hand. He could command the Bruinen
(?) river near Rivendell, and heal Frodo, so perhaps some levels of Druid?
Possibly. He's tough too because his full power is never revealed in
LOTR (I don't know about JRR's other works). As far as Sauron, he has
two stat blocks: with the Ring and without it. One has to wonder how
they'd quantify the power gained in RPG terms.
Post by David Alex Lamb
The ones I clipped seem reasonable to me.
Another toughy: Tom Bambadil. The Ring had no effect on him and he
wasn't bothered by barrow-wights but would he be able to take Sauron on
in a one on one fight (if it ever came to that)? It'd be interesting
to see.
Post by David Alex Lamb
One question that occurs to me: does MERP give statistics for the major
characters and, if so, how close did they come to what you've
suggested?
I never checked out MERP, mainly because I never liked the publisher's
rule intensive books and thousands of charts. I had a bad experience
looking at Rolemaster products. Too much detail.
David Alex Lamb
2005-01-07 17:28:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Rump Ranger
Post by David Alex Lamb
Post by Rump Ranger
Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters
What about Eowen?
Forgot about her. She's a fighter but she's pretty special being able
to smite the Witch King. Although Merry's barrow-blade had something
to do with it.
There is also the 'prophecy' that "no man could slay the Witch King"; I don't
know how to take that into account, except perhaps a spell-like add to combat
skill.
Post by Rump Ranger
Another toughy: Tom Bambadil. The Ring had no effect on him and he
wasn't bothered by barrow-wights but would he be able to take Sauron on
in a one on one fight (if it ever came to that)? It'd be interesting
to see.
I just read the section about the Council of Elrond to my son last night, and
the worthies believed that Bombadil would be the last to fall to Sauron, but
he'd fall in the end.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
Rump Ranger
2005-01-07 17:42:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Alex Lamb
Post by Rump Ranger
Post by David Alex Lamb
Post by Rump Ranger
Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters
What about Eowen?
Forgot about her. She's a fighter but she's pretty special being able
to smite the Witch King. Although Merry's barrow-blade had
something
Post by David Alex Lamb
Post by Rump Ranger
to do with it.
There is also the 'prophecy' that "no man could slay the Witch King";
I don't
Post by David Alex Lamb
know how to take that into account, except perhaps a spell-like add to combat
skill.
Maybe a holy smite ability?
Post by David Alex Lamb
Post by Rump Ranger
Another toughy: Tom Bambadil. The Ring had no effect on him and he
wasn't bothered by barrow-wights but would he be able to take Sauron on
in a one on one fight (if it ever came to that)? It'd be
interesting
Post by David Alex Lamb
Post by Rump Ranger
to see.
I just read the section about the Council of Elrond to my son last night, and
the worthies believed that Bombadil would be the last to fall to Sauron, but
he'd fall in the end.
That's right, because Gandalf said so (and he's the only one who really
knew outside of perhaps Elrond). Didn't one of them (Glorfindel IIRC)
suggest they give the Ring to Bambadil to hold?
John Phillips
2005-01-07 18:06:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Alex Lamb
Post by Rump Ranger
Post by David Alex Lamb
Post by Rump Ranger
Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters
What about Eowen?
Forgot about her. She's a fighter but she's pretty special being able
to smite the Witch King. Although Merry's barrow-blade had something
to do with it.
There is also the 'prophecy' that "no man could slay the Witch King"; I don't
know how to take that into account, except perhaps a spell-like add to combat
skill.
All his DR and what not are not effective vs.Women/Hobbits?


John
Rump Ranger
2005-01-07 18:25:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Rump Ranger
Post by David Alex Lamb
Post by Rump Ranger
Post by David Alex Lamb
Post by Rump Ranger
Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level
fighters
Post by Rump Ranger
Post by David Alex Lamb
Post by Rump Ranger
Post by David Alex Lamb
What about Eowen?
Forgot about her. She's a fighter but she's pretty special being able
to smite the Witch King. Although Merry's barrow-blade had
something
Post by Rump Ranger
Post by David Alex Lamb
Post by Rump Ranger
to do with it.
There is also the 'prophecy' that "no man could slay the Witch
King"; I
Post by Rump Ranger
don't
Post by David Alex Lamb
know how to take that into account, except perhaps a spell-like add
to
Post by Rump Ranger
combat
Post by David Alex Lamb
skill.
All his DR and what not are not effective vs.Women/Hobbits?
The blade Merry used had special properties which pierced him. It's
debatable whether Eowyn would have been able to damage him without that
special blade striking him.
Peter Mork
2005-01-07 17:39:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Rump Ranger
Possibly. He's tough too because his full power is never revealed in
LOTR (I don't know about JRR's other works). As far as Sauron, he has
two stat blocks: with the Ring and without it. One has to wonder how
they'd quantify the power gained in RPG terms.
In the old (ICE) LOTR role-playing game, Sauron was level 2N when he made
the ring. He invested N of his levels into the ring, leaving him at level
N. However, the ring granted Sauron +2N levels. Thus:
Pre-ring-crafting: 2N
Post-ring-crafting with ring: 3N
Without ring: N

(Where N is some suitably ridiculous number. IIRC they chose N=40, in a
system in which characters pretty much maxed out at level 10.)

Peter
Shadow Wolf
2005-01-07 18:45:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Mork
Post by Rump Ranger
Possibly. He's tough too because his full power is never revealed in
LOTR (I don't know about JRR's other works). As far as Sauron, he
has two stat blocks: with the Ring and without it. One has to wonder
how they'd quantify the power gained in RPG terms.
In the old (ICE) LOTR role-playing game, Sauron was level 2N when he
made the ring. He invested N of his levels into the ring, leaving him
Pre-ring-crafting: 2N
Post-ring-crafting with ring: 3N
Without ring: N
(Where N is some suitably ridiculous number. IIRC they chose N=40, in
a system in which characters pretty much maxed out at level 10.)
Peter
This sounds roughly like Item Familiar to me...
--
Shadow Wolf
shadow_wolf1 at hotpop dot com
Stories at http://www.asstr.org/~Shadow_Wolf
AIF at http://www.geocities.com/shadowolf3400
Rump Ranger
2005-01-07 18:46:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Shadow Wolf
Post by Peter Mork
Post by Rump Ranger
Possibly. He's tough too because his full power is never revealed in
LOTR (I don't know about JRR's other works). As far as Sauron, he
has two stat blocks: with the Ring and without it. One has to wonder
how they'd quantify the power gained in RPG terms.
In the old (ICE) LOTR role-playing game, Sauron was level 2N when he
made the ring. He invested N of his levels into the ring, leaving him
Pre-ring-crafting: 2N
Post-ring-crafting with ring: 3N
Without ring: N
(Where N is some suitably ridiculous number. IIRC they chose N=40, in
a system in which characters pretty much maxed out at level 10.)
Peter
This sounds roughly like Item Familiar to me...
Where is that from?
Shadow Wolf
2005-01-07 18:52:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Rump Ranger
Post by Shadow Wolf
Post by Peter Mork
Post by Rump Ranger
Possibly. He's tough too because his full power is never revealed
in
Post by Shadow Wolf
Post by Peter Mork
Post by Rump Ranger
LOTR (I don't know about JRR's other works). As far as Sauron, he
has two stat blocks: with the Ring and without it. One has to
wonder
Post by Shadow Wolf
Post by Peter Mork
Post by Rump Ranger
how they'd quantify the power gained in RPG terms.
In the old (ICE) LOTR role-playing game, Sauron was level 2N when
he
Post by Shadow Wolf
Post by Peter Mork
made the ring. He invested N of his levels into the ring, leaving
him
Post by Shadow Wolf
Post by Peter Mork
Pre-ring-crafting: 2N
Post-ring-crafting with ring: 3N
Without ring: N
(Where N is some suitably ridiculous number. IIRC they chose N=40,
in
Post by Shadow Wolf
Post by Peter Mork
a system in which characters pretty much maxed out at level 10.)
Peter
This sounds roughly like Item Familiar to me...
Where is that from?
The new Unearthed Arcana.
--
Shadow Wolf
shadow_wolf1 at hotpop dot com
Stories at http://www.asstr.org/~Shadow_Wolf
AIF at http://www.geocities.com/shadowolf3400
Rump Ranger
2005-01-07 20:36:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Shadow Wolf
Post by Rump Ranger
Post by Shadow Wolf
Post by Peter Mork
Post by Rump Ranger
Possibly. He's tough too because his full power is never revealed
in
Post by Shadow Wolf
Post by Peter Mork
Post by Rump Ranger
LOTR (I don't know about JRR's other works). As far as Sauron, he
has two stat blocks: with the Ring and without it. One has to
wonder
Post by Shadow Wolf
Post by Peter Mork
Post by Rump Ranger
how they'd quantify the power gained in RPG terms.
In the old (ICE) LOTR role-playing game, Sauron was level 2N when
he
Post by Shadow Wolf
Post by Peter Mork
made the ring. He invested N of his levels into the ring, leaving
him
Post by Shadow Wolf
Post by Peter Mork
Pre-ring-crafting: 2N
Post-ring-crafting with ring: 3N
Without ring: N
(Where N is some suitably ridiculous number. IIRC they chose N=40,
in
Post by Shadow Wolf
Post by Peter Mork
a system in which characters pretty much maxed out at level 10.)
Peter
This sounds roughly like Item Familiar to me...
Where is that from?
The new Unearthed Arcana.
Ah. I don't have that. Anyone think the Complete Arcane is worth it?
If it's better than Complete Warrior I'd be pretty happy.
Rump Ranger
2005-01-07 21:12:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Mork
Post by Rump Ranger
Possibly. He's tough too because his full power is never revealed in
LOTR (I don't know about JRR's other works). As far as Sauron, he has
two stat blocks: with the Ring and without it. One has to wonder how
they'd quantify the power gained in RPG terms.
In the old (ICE) LOTR role-playing game, Sauron was level 2N when he made
the ring. He invested N of his levels into the ring, leaving him at level
Pre-ring-crafting: 2N
Post-ring-crafting with ring: 3N
Without ring: N
(Where N is some suitably ridiculous number. IIRC they chose N=40, in a
system in which characters pretty much maxed out at level 10.)
Makes sense. Where was Gandalf in levels and did the ability to gain
+?N levels apply to those who mastered the Ring? IIRC, in the books it
was hinted that if Gandalf, Elrond, or Galadriel (possibly Celeborn,
Glorfindel, Aragorn, or Saruman) had the Ring and had enough time to
master it, they'd probably be able to overthrow and destroy Sauron.
Only problem is that the Ring would turn them into the next Dark Lord
and hence why it had to be destroyed.
Lorenz Lang
2005-01-07 16:45:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Rump Ranger
Has anyone here bothered to put out some well thought out stats as to
major characters of Middle-Earth? As a purely mental experiment of
course. What would you say would be the stats of, say Sauron or the
Ringwraiths?
The Ringwraiths are more like ghosts (rejuvenation) than wraiths in DnD.
Post by Rump Ranger
IMO, Gandalf would be an Outsider with a Celestial Template and several
levels of bard added (I know he's a wizard but Tolkien wasn't using D&D
classes when he wrote about Gandalf. He fits bard pretty well: he can
heal, cast evocations, can inspire people, and is a loremaster). Then
again, we never really see Gandalf's true power.
In the books Gandalf is much more 'active' than in the movies.
It starts in 'The Hobbit' with tricking the trolls and casting fireballs
at the attacking worgs and orcs IIRC. Classic wizard/sorcerer stuff.
In LotR he was responsible for the flood (not Arwen, grr), washing away
the Wraiths. The hobbits and Aragorn see his flashy firemagic from the far
and found a whole hilltop scorched and blackened (IIRC again).

In Moria he magically sealed a portal, but the Balrog broke the spell
weakening Gandalf.
Post by Rump Ranger
His job was to
inspire the peoples of ME to fight for themselves. Outsider HD would be
used to give him the high BAB he has (they fight as well as fighters
and Gandalf fought as well as anyone). How many HD he has is beyond me
(I'd say epic levels).
Definitely epic.
Post by Rump Ranger
Aragorn- no brainer as a fighter with mostly ranger levels. Something
along the lines of a fighter 4 (for weapon specialization) and like
12-16 levels of ranger. Throw in the leadership feat and include a
sub-race for humans (Numenoreans) and I'd say you can model him well.
Some Aristocrat levels mixed in? Close to epic, 16 - 18 feels right.
Post by Rump Ranger
Gimli- another no brainer, fighter who specialized in axes with a level
near 20. He seems pretty epic from the books.
Legolas- he's tough because Tolkien elves aren't D&D elves but he'd no
doubt be a fighter (not an arcane archer) with maxed out archery skills
and around 20th level or so (he's nearly equal to Aragorn and Gimli).
Bilbo Baggins- a couple levels of commoner (because at the beginning of
the Hobbit he doesn't know much),
Isn't he a kind of landlord? That would be aristocrat.
Post by Rump Ranger
a few levels of rogue (for his
adventures with the dwarves) and then expert with lots of ranks in
poetry and knowledge (I won't classify him as a bard because he doesn't
cast spells). Power level's hard to tell.
Frodo Baggins- starts off with expert levels (he's a cut above normal
hobbits because he lived with Bilbo and learned a lot from him). Only
problem is what he becomes when he goes on his journey. He doesn't
seem to fit rogue nor does he seem to fit fighter. Maybe more expert
levels?
20th level Ringbearer PrC ;-)
Post by Rump Ranger
Samwise- starts off as commoner with gardening maxed out and gains a
few levels of fighter. He's capable of holding his own against Shelob
which has to count for something.
Merry and Pippen- both start as commoners and easily become fighters as
Merry becomes a Rider of the Rohirrim and Pippen becomes a knight of
Gondor.
IIRC Merry is aristocrat too, son of the Brandibuck(?).
Post by Rump Ranger
Saruman is simliar to Gandalf with a permanent charm effect on his
voice and enchanter levels. An outsider all the way.
Rhadagast, although little talked about, is also an Istari. Sounds
like he has druid levels (Gandalf said he was well versed in herbs,
shapes, and in making friends with beasts).
Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters
Who is Imrahil?
Post by Rump Ranger
Faramir is a tough one to classify. Possible ranger (because of his
knowledge of the woods of Ithilien), fighter (his great skill), or a
paladin (because he was so good and people saw it despite the movies
making him out to be a prick).
Pal/Rng could be close. Lower level than Aragorn, mid to high 12 - 16?
Post by Rump Ranger
I'm at a loss for Sauron (who's pretty a damn powerful outsider in any
case). What about Elrond or Galadriel?
Sauron: (Demi?)god Fighter/Wizard kind-of-lich with the Ring as
kind-of-phylactery???

Elrond: Fighter/Wizard
Galadriel: Sorcerer or Wizard
I see both at epic levels. Closely above Aragorn but below Gandalf.

LL
Rump Ranger
2005-01-07 17:39:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lorenz Lang
Post by Rump Ranger
Has anyone here bothered to put out some well thought out stats as to
major characters of Middle-Earth? As a purely mental experiment of
course. What would you say would be the stats of, say Sauron or the
Ringwraiths?
The Ringwraiths are more like ghosts (rejuvenation) than wraiths in DnD.
That's what I thought except that they're more like shadows with a wail
of the banshee type of effect which stuns and puts fear into men rather
than kills them. I'd also say they had a pretty powerful fear aura
(people didn't need to see them to feel their presence).
Post by Lorenz Lang
Post by Rump Ranger
IMO, Gandalf would be an Outsider with a Celestial Template and several
levels of bard added (I know he's a wizard but Tolkien wasn't using D&D
classes when he wrote about Gandalf. He fits bard pretty well: he can
heal, cast evocations, can inspire people, and is a loremaster).
Then
Post by Lorenz Lang
Post by Rump Ranger
again, we never really see Gandalf's true power.
In the books Gandalf is much more 'active' than in the movies.
It starts in 'The Hobbit' with tricking the trolls and casting
fireballs
Post by Lorenz Lang
at the attacking worgs and orcs IIRC. Classic wizard/sorcerer stuff.
Possible bardic abilities too.
Post by Lorenz Lang
In LotR he was responsible for the flood (not Arwen, grr), washing away
the Wraiths.
Actually, it was Elrond IIRC because Frodo called in a voice not his
own in Elvish for the river to protect him. Glorfindel came from
behind and pushed the Nazgul into the river. I'm almost positive
Gandalf didn't do it (and you're right, Arwen didn't do it either).
Post by Lorenz Lang
The hobbits and Aragorn see his flashy firemagic from the far
and found a whole hilltop scorched and blackened (IIRC again).
Agreed. It's possible it was pyrotechnics which can be emulated by
bardic levels. The Nazgul hated light and Gandalf did have one of the
Three Rings of power. The fire one (forgot the name).
Post by Lorenz Lang
In Moria he magically sealed a portal, but the Balrog broke the spell
weakening Gandalf.
Part of it also goes into Gandalf's staff. I believe it was a magical
item and he did have on of the Three Great Rings.
Post by Lorenz Lang
Post by Rump Ranger
His job was to
inspire the peoples of ME to fight for themselves. Outsider HD would be
used to give him the high BAB he has (they fight as well as
fighters
Post by Lorenz Lang
Post by Rump Ranger
and Gandalf fought as well as anyone). How many HD he has is beyond me
(I'd say epic levels).
Definitely epic.
Post by Rump Ranger
Aragorn- no brainer as a fighter with mostly ranger levels.
Something
Post by Lorenz Lang
Post by Rump Ranger
along the lines of a fighter 4 (for weapon specialization) and like
12-16 levels of ranger. Throw in the leadership feat and include a
sub-race for humans (Numenoreans) and I'd say you can model him well.
Some Aristocrat levels mixed in? Close to epic, 16 - 18 feels right.
Why does he need Aristocrat? At least not until he takes the title of
King Essamar. He didn't really run a government until after the books
were done. Before hand he was a warrior and a ranger.
Post by Lorenz Lang
Post by Rump Ranger
Gimli- another no brainer, fighter who specialized in axes with a level
near 20. He seems pretty epic from the books.
Legolas- he's tough because Tolkien elves aren't D&D elves but he'd no
doubt be a fighter (not an arcane archer) with maxed out archery skills
and around 20th level or so (he's nearly equal to Aragorn and Gimli).
Bilbo Baggins- a couple levels of commoner (because at the
beginning of
Post by Lorenz Lang
Post by Rump Ranger
the Hobbit he doesn't know much),
Isn't he a kind of landlord? That would be aristocrat.
Disagree. Bilbo in the beginning of the Hobbit had only a few skills.
Mostly cooking and smoking (which was an art to the hobbits) he sounds
exactly like the NPC class of commoner at the beginning. Aristocrat is
possible.
Post by Lorenz Lang
Post by Rump Ranger
a few levels of rogue (for his
adventures with the dwarves) and then expert with lots of ranks in
poetry and knowledge (I won't classify him as a bard because he doesn't
cast spells). Power level's hard to tell.
Frodo Baggins- starts off with expert levels (he's a cut above normal
hobbits because he lived with Bilbo and learned a lot from him).
Only
Post by Lorenz Lang
Post by Rump Ranger
problem is what he becomes when he goes on his journey. He doesn't
seem to fit rogue nor does he seem to fit fighter. Maybe more expert
levels?
20th level Ringbearer PrC ;-)
Yeah, but Frodo was kinda weak outside of his ability to go on the
journey. He did an epic thing while being an everyday kind of guy.
Post by Lorenz Lang
Post by Rump Ranger
Samwise- starts off as commoner with gardening maxed out and gains a
few levels of fighter. He's capable of holding his own against Shelob
which has to count for something.
Merry and Pippen- both start as commoners and easily become
fighters as
Post by Lorenz Lang
Post by Rump Ranger
Merry becomes a Rider of the Rohirrim and Pippen becomes a knight of
Gondor.
IIRC Merry is aristocrat too, son of the Brandibuck(?).
Post by Rump Ranger
Saruman is simliar to Gandalf with a permanent charm effect on his
voice and enchanter levels. An outsider all the way.
Rhadagast, although little talked about, is also an Istari. Sounds
like he has druid levels (Gandalf said he was well versed in herbs,
shapes, and in making friends with beasts).
Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters
Who is Imrahil?
The Prince who leads the men of Gondor when Denethor goes mad and
Faramir is in the Houses of the Healing. Aragorn refused to take his
Kingship until after the Ring is destroyed and he plays a pretty big
part in the battles of ROTK (in the books, not the movie).
Post by Lorenz Lang
Post by Rump Ranger
Faramir is a tough one to classify. Possible ranger (because of his
knowledge of the woods of Ithilien), fighter (his great skill), or a
paladin (because he was so good and people saw it despite the movies
making him out to be a prick).
Pal/Rng could be close. Lower level than Aragorn, mid to high 12 - 16?
Hard to tell but he could best any Rider of the Rohirrim in combat (at
least that's what Eowyn thinks when she sizes him up). The only two
people of Rohan I think who could take Faramir (or give him a run for
his money) would be Eomer or Theoden.
Post by Lorenz Lang
Post by Rump Ranger
I'm at a loss for Sauron (who's pretty a damn powerful outsider in any
case). What about Elrond or Galadriel?
Sauron: (Demi?)god Fighter/Wizard kind-of-lich with the Ring as
kind-of-phylactery???
A lich works well but I'd say he's an outsider of some sort. Hard to
tell except that he's capable of controling weather at least 1000 miles
away and calling evil men to his call from all over the East and South.
Post by Lorenz Lang
Elrond: Fighter/Wizard
Galadriel: Sorcerer or Wizard
I see both at epic levels. Closely above Aragorn but below Gandalf.
Below Gandalf, but I'd think at least Elrond would wipe the floor with
Aragorn. Seriously. Galadriel doesn't strike me as the combat type.
I'd say she has some pretty strong charm spells at her disposal.
Elrond sounds like he has at least some druidic powers (able to control
the river which guards his land). Also remember that both had one of
the Three Great Rings which have to be major artifacts.
Auspex
2005-01-07 19:51:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Rump Ranger
In LotR [Gandalf] was responsible for the flood
(not Arwen, grr), washing away
the Wraiths.
Actually, it was Elrond IIRC because Frodo called in a voice not his
Very correct. I've got no problem with the movie replacing Glorfindel with
Arwen - there were too many characters for a movie, anyway.
Post by Rump Ranger
own in Elvish for the river to protect him. Glorfindel came from
behind and pushed the Nazgul into the river. I'm almost positive
Gandalf didn't do it (and you're right, Arwen didn't do it either).
Post by Rump Ranger
Aragorn- no brainer as a fighter with mostly ranger levels.
... Some Aristocrat levels mixed in? Close to epic, 16 - 18 feels right.
Post by Rump Ranger
Why does he need Aristocrat? At least not until he takes the title of
King Essamar. He didn't really run a government until after the books
were done. Before hand he was a warrior and a ranger.
He was still highly aware of his lineage, and Aristocrat seems right.
Post by Rump Ranger
Yeah, but Frodo was kinda weak outside of his ability to go on the
journey. He did an epic thing while being an everyday kind of guy.
That's just the nature of hobbits - you could say the same of Bilbo, Sam,
Merry and Pippin.
Post by Rump Ranger
Post by Rump Ranger
Rhadagast, although little talked about, is also an Istari. Sounds
like he has druid levels (Gandalf said he was well versed in herbs,
shapes, and in making friends with beasts).
iirc, the Ents knew him, well, too. Which fits with Druid.
Post by Rump Ranger
Post by Rump Ranger
Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters
Boromir has to be at least a level higher than Faramir, as a fighter.
Post by Rump Ranger
A lich works well but I'd say he's an outsider of some sort. Hard to
tell except that he's capable of controling weather at least 1000 miles
away and calling evil men to his call from all over the East and South.
is that last even magical? It could as easily have been done by FedEx.
Post by Rump Ranger
Below Gandalf, but I'd think at least Elrond would wipe the floor with
Aragorn. Seriously.
He was probably the most important survivor of the previous battle to
overthrow Sauron. No wimp.
--
Auspex
Rump Ranger
2005-01-07 20:57:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Auspex
Post by Rump Ranger
In LotR [Gandalf] was responsible for the flood
(not Arwen, grr), washing away
the Wraiths.
Actually, it was Elrond IIRC because Frodo called in a voice not his
Very correct. I've got no problem with the movie replacing
Glorfindel with
Post by Auspex
Arwen - there were too many characters for a movie, anyway.
My problem with Arwen in that scene (and in fact the whole scene after
Weathertop) is that Frodo seems to go AWOL when in the book he didn't.
I'd rather see a flaming Glorfindel charge the Nazgul while Frodo
stands against them on his steed than the whole forcing of Arwen down
our throats. PJ spent way too much time showing the whole
Aragorn/Arwen thing when she doesn't say anything until the end in the
books (and no PJ, Elrond wasn't an asshole IRT his daughter taking
Aragorn as a husband).
Post by Auspex
Post by Rump Ranger
own in Elvish for the river to protect him. Glorfindel came from
behind and pushed the Nazgul into the river. I'm almost positive
Gandalf didn't do it (and you're right, Arwen didn't do it either).
Post by Rump Ranger
Aragorn- no brainer as a fighter with mostly ranger levels.
... Some Aristocrat levels mixed in? Close to epic, 16 - 18 feels right.
Post by Rump Ranger
Why does he need Aristocrat? At least not until he takes the title of
King Essamar. He didn't really run a government until after the books
were done. Before hand he was a warrior and a ranger.
He was still highly aware of his lineage, and Aristocrat seems right.
Leadership feat and ranks in diplomacy and knowledge (nobility) works
better. There's no need to add a few levels of an NPC class which is
weaker than the adventuring ones when the skill system allows this.
Aragorn also didn't seek his lineage until he had little choice.
Post by Auspex
Post by Rump Ranger
Yeah, but Frodo was kinda weak outside of his ability to go on the
journey. He did an epic thing while being an everyday kind of guy.
That's just the nature of hobbits - you could say the same of Bilbo, Sam,
Merry and Pippin.
Which was Tolkien's point. Bilbo starts off in the Hobbit as a common
man who's swept up in huge events. Gandalf insisted he go despite the
protest of the dwarves. Gandalf also insisted that Merry and Pippen
join the Fellowship despite Elrond thinking that they wouldn't be good
for it. The thing is that outside of Frodo, all the other hobbits show
signs of entering what could be called D&D classes during their
adventures. Frodo doesn't fight nor do anything like sneaking but
instead bears the Ring. No easy task but he'd fail without Sam and
Gollum.
Post by Auspex
Post by Rump Ranger
Post by Rump Ranger
Rhadagast, although little talked about, is also an Istari.
Sounds
Post by Auspex
Post by Rump Ranger
Post by Rump Ranger
like he has druid levels (Gandalf said he was well versed in herbs,
shapes, and in making friends with beasts).
iirc, the Ents knew him, well, too. Which fits with Druid.
I don't recall if the Ents knew him or not, but the Beornings (from the
Hobbit) did. IIRC, Beorn told Gandalf that Rhadagast wasn't all that
bad as far as wizards go. Beorn sounds like a druid of sorts too (or a
werebear).
Post by Auspex
Post by Rump Ranger
Post by Rump Ranger
Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters
Boromir has to be at least a level higher than Faramir, as a fighter.
Possibly. But Faramir is either a custom ranger or a custom paladin.
He's good to a fault (everyone who meets him notices this) but he's
also got a lot of woodland skill.
Post by Auspex
Post by Rump Ranger
A lich works well but I'd say he's an outsider of some sort. Hard to
tell except that he's capable of controling weather at least 1000 miles
away and calling evil men to his call from all over the East and South.
is that last even magical? It could as easily have been done by FedEx.
IIRC, Gandalf explained how when the Shadow rebuilt Burad-Dur that all
the evil in the world was drawn to Mordor as if they were drawn- almost
like a vortex of evil effect which compels all evil to seek out Mordor.
Consider: Gollum left the Misty Mountains and was drawn to Mordor. He
went alone and was captured at the Morranon. There's no way Sauron
sent a messenger to draw Gollum to the gate (granted, the two were
linked because of the Ring, but it's evidence that Sauron has sway over
evil minds). Furthermore, during the last battle at the gate, Sauron's
Eye gave his forces strength and commanded by sheer will. When his Eye
shifted to Oruduin when Frodo claimed the Ring, the forces of Mordor
were severly weakened.
Post by Auspex
Post by Rump Ranger
Below Gandalf, but I'd think at least Elrond would wipe the floor with
Aragorn. Seriously.
He was probably the most important survivor of the previous battle to
overthrow Sauron. No wimp.
Exactly. His sons kicked butt in the book so I'd guess the father
could do so too.
drow
2005-01-07 21:30:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Rump Ranger
The thing is that outside of Frodo, all the other hobbits show
signs of entering what could be called D&D classes during their
adventures. Frodo doesn't fight nor do anything like sneaking but
instead bears the Ring. No easy task but he'd fail without Sam and
Gollum.
obviously, frodo was taking levels in 'Ringbearer', a custom class
designed by the DM with incredibly strong Will saves and little else.
(enough to overcome the steadily increasing DCs of the ring's influence
as he drew closer to mordor, until he rolls a natural 1 at the cracks
of doom.) after destroying the ring, of course, the player realized
that his character was now utterly pointless and chose to retire him.
--
\^\ // ***@bin.sh (CARRIER LOST) <http://www.bin.sh/>
\ // - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
// \ X-Windows: The defacto sub-standard.
// \_\ -- Dude from DPAK
Ian R Malcomson
2005-01-07 19:57:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Rump Ranger
IMO, Gandalf would be an Outsider with a Celestial Template and several
levels of bard added (I know he's a wizard but Tolkien wasn't using D&D
classes when he wrote about Gandalf. He fits bard pretty well: he can
heal, cast evocations, can inspire people, and is a loremaster). Then
again, we never really see Gandalf's true power. His job was to
inspire the peoples of ME to fight for themselves. Outsider HD would be
used to give him the high BAB he has (they fight as well as fighters
and Gandalf fought as well as anyone). How many HD he has is beyond me
(I'd say epic levels).
I don't think the Celestial template works for Gandalf as well as, say,
creating "Istari" as a race unto itself.

Anyway... after a bit of unsuccessful searching - does anyone know
where a fairly extensive (as in heading back a few years) archive of
this NG can be found? We've done this "What would LotR D&D stats be..."
before - it might be of interest to recap.
--
Ian R Malcomson
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box"
Rump Ranger
2005-01-07 20:35:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian R Malcomson
Post by Rump Ranger
IMO, Gandalf would be an Outsider with a Celestial Template and several
levels of bard added (I know he's a wizard but Tolkien wasn't using D&D
classes when he wrote about Gandalf. He fits bard pretty well: he can
heal, cast evocations, can inspire people, and is a loremaster).
Then
Post by Ian R Malcomson
Post by Rump Ranger
again, we never really see Gandalf's true power. His job was to
inspire the peoples of ME to fight for themselves. Outsider HD would be
used to give him the high BAB he has (they fight as well as fighters
and Gandalf fought as well as anyone). How many HD he has is beyond me
(I'd say epic levels).
I don't think the Celestial template works for Gandalf as well as, say,
creating "Istari" as a race unto itself.
How would you go about that seeing as how the only two Istari which we
see up close and personal have different powers? Yeah, we see
Rhadagast for maybe 3 pages but all we've really got about him is
Gandalf's description and that he told the Eagles about Saruman's news
at Gandalf's request. That and the fact that Gandalf used his name for
Beorn to gain favor in the Hobbit. If Rhadagast or the other two make
an appearence in any other Tolkien work, then obviously things change.


All I know is that Gandalf the White seems to me like a Celestial
Outsider (and Saruman is a fallen one). I'm all game for an Istari
template if it can be done.
Post by Ian R Malcomson
Anyway... after a bit of unsuccessful searching - does anyone know
where a fairly extensive (as in heading back a few years) archive of
this NG can be found? We've done this "What would LotR D&D stats be..."
before - it might be of interest to recap.
Did you check Google? I did and found the discussions to be from a few
years back and mostly a flamewar.
Loading...