Discussion:
Whatever happened to Michael Scott Brown?
(too old to reply)
LeSombre
2015-01-29 19:33:49 UTC
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I remember beeing told off by MSB on my very forst post years ago. "I think negative things of your intelligence" he wrote. Fond memories.

I often wonder if he's still around of if he moved to something like Reddit or 4Chan...

Cheers,

LeSombre
Tetsubo
2015-01-29 21:22:28 UTC
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Post by LeSombre
I remember beeing told off by MSB on my very forst post years ago. "I think negative things of your intelligence" he wrote. Fond memories.
I often wonder if he's still around of if he moved to something like Reddit or 4Chan...
Cheers,
LeSombre
Personally I miss Hong. Before he went batty. He had some great content
at one time.
--
Tetsubo
Deviant Art: http://ironstaff.deviantart.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsubo57
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2015-01-29 21:03:38 UTC
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Post by Tetsubo
Post by LeSombre
I remember beeing told off by MSB on my very forst post years
ago. "I think negative things of your intelligence" he wrote.
Fond memories.
I often wonder if he's still around of if he moved to something like Reddit or 4Chan...
Cheers,
LeSombre
Personally I miss Hong. Before he went batty. He had some
great content
at one time.
Hone you can still find through Google. MSB, however, is apparently a
pretty common name. Facebook has a whole page of results for it.
--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2015-01-29 23:51:56 UTC
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Post by Tetsubo
Post by LeSombre
I remember beeing told off by MSB on my very forst post years ago. "I
think negative things of your intelligence" he wrote. Fond memories.
I often wonder if he's still around of if he moved to something like Reddit or 4Chan...
Cheers,
LeSombre
Personally I miss Hong. Before he went batty. He had some great
content at one time.
IYKWIM, AITYD.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Tetsubo
2015-01-30 13:10:56 UTC
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Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Tetsubo
Post by LeSombre
I remember beeing told off by MSB on my very forst post years ago. "I
think negative things of your intelligence" he wrote. Fond memories.
I often wonder if he's still around of if he moved to something like Reddit or 4Chan...
Cheers,
LeSombre
Personally I miss Hong. Before he went batty. He had some great
content at one time.
IYKWIM, AITYD.
Yes I do. But I always thought yours was bigger.
--
Tetsubo
Deviant Art: http://ironstaff.deviantart.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsubo57
LL
2015-01-30 10:08:00 UTC
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Post by LeSombre
I remember beeing told off by MSB on my very forst post years ago. "I think negative things of your intelligence" he wrote. Fond memories.
I often wonder if he's still around of if he moved to something like Reddit or 4Chan...
Maybe he grew up, left mom's basement and became a valuable
member of society? :-)
Anonymous Jack
2015-01-30 16:15:56 UTC
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Post by LL
Post by LeSombre
I remember beeing told off by MSB on my very forst post years ago. "I think negative things of your intelligence" he wrote. Fond memories.
I often wonder if he's still around of if he moved to something like Reddit or 4Chan...
Maybe he grew up, left mom's basement and became a valuable
member of society? :-)
Whoah, now, let's not get too far into fantasy land!

I had no problems with MSB though he could be a touch abrasive.

I must've missed Hong going batty. last few posts I could remember in RGFD looked pretty normal, other than being fairly obsessive about Eastern-themed classes and campaigns.
Tetsubo
2015-01-30 21:47:12 UTC
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Post by Anonymous Jack
Post by LL
Post by LeSombre
I remember beeing told off by MSB on my very forst post years ago. "I think negative things of your intelligence" he wrote. Fond memories.
I often wonder if he's still around of if he moved to something like Reddit or 4Chan...
Maybe he grew up, left mom's basement and became a valuable
member of society? :-)
Whoah, now, let's not get too far into fantasy land!
I had no problems with MSB though he could be a touch abrasive.
I must've missed Hong going batty. last few posts I could remember in RGFD looked pretty normal, other than being fairly obsessive about Eastern-themed classes and campaigns.
It may have been a purely personal animosity between Hong and I. I
wanted nothing to do with 4E and he *insisted* that I would in fact
convert. He was wrong. And he became quite abrasive in his insistence.
The vitriol was rather harsh and I could never figure out why.
--
Tetsubo
Deviant Art: http://ironstaff.deviantart.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsubo57
Anonymous Jack
2015-02-03 20:39:04 UTC
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Post by Tetsubo
It may have been a purely personal animosity between Hong and I. I
wanted nothing to do with 4E and he *insisted* that I would in fact
convert. He was wrong. And he became quite abrasive in his insistence.
The vitriol was rather harsh and I could never figure out why.
Ah, thanks. I must've missed quite a bit of goings on with 4E.

I can't imagine insisting another person would love any particular gaming system. Totally ignoring personal tastes, preferences, etc. There is no "one game to rule them all."

I bought 3 or 4 copies of Neverwinter Nights as gifts for friends, none of them liked it much :( Whereas I still play, when I can... it's been long enough that I've completely forgotten some modules I know I have played.

A friend gifted the 4E PHB to me, I just could not get into 4E, either.
h***@gmail.com
2015-02-03 23:13:13 UTC
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Post by Anonymous Jack
Post by Tetsubo
It may have been a purely personal animosity between Hong and I. I
wanted nothing to do with 4E and he *insisted* that I would in fact
convert. He was wrong. And he became quite abrasive in his insistence.
The vitriol was rather harsh and I could never figure out why.
Ah, thanks. I must've missed quite a bit of goings on with 4E.
I can't imagine insisting another person would love any particular gaming system. Totally ignoring personal tastes, preferences, etc. There is no "one game to rule them all."
I think a lot of it came down to the vehemence with which Tetsubo was attacking 4th ed and some of the "reasoning" behind it.
Tetsubo
2015-02-03 23:40:00 UTC
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Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Anonymous Jack
Post by Tetsubo
It may have been a purely personal animosity between Hong and I. I
wanted nothing to do with 4E and he *insisted* that I would in fact
convert. He was wrong. And he became quite abrasive in his insistence.
The vitriol was rather harsh and I could never figure out why.
Ah, thanks. I must've missed quite a bit of goings on with 4E.
I can't imagine insisting another person would love any particular gaming system. Totally ignoring personal tastes, preferences, etc. There is no "one game to rule them all."
I think a lot of it came down to the vehemence with which Tetsubo was attacking 4th ed and some of the "reasoning" behind it.
True. But I wasn't wrong. :)
--
Tetsubo
Deviant Art: http://ironstaff.deviantart.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsubo57
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2015-02-03 23:49:15 UTC
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Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Anonymous Jack
Post by Tetsubo
It may have been a purely personal animosity between Hong and I. I
wanted nothing to do with 4E and he *insisted* that I would in fact
convert. He was wrong. And he became quite abrasive in his insistence.
The vitriol was rather harsh and I could never figure out why.
Ah, thanks. I must've missed quite a bit of goings on with 4E.
I can't imagine insisting another person would love any particular gaming system. Totally ignoring personal tastes, preferences, etc. There is no "one game to rule them all."
I think a lot of it came down to the vehemence with which Tetsubo was attacking 4th ed and some of the "reasoning" behind it.
But as he was correct, the vehemence was justified!
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Tetsubo
2015-02-04 13:06:17 UTC
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Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Anonymous Jack
Post by Tetsubo
It may have been a purely personal animosity between Hong and I. I
wanted nothing to do with 4E and he *insisted* that I would in fact
convert. He was wrong. And he became quite abrasive in his insistence.
The vitriol was rather harsh and I could never figure out why.
Ah, thanks. I must've missed quite a bit of goings on with 4E.
I can't imagine insisting another person would love any particular
gaming system. Totally ignoring personal tastes, preferences, etc.
There is no "one game to rule them all."
I think a lot of it came down to the vehemence with which Tetsubo was
attacking 4th ed and some of the "reasoning" behind it.
But as he was correct, the vehemence was justified!
I (rightfully) attacked a game that was not D&D, passing itself off as
D&D. Hong attacked *me*. World of difference.
--
Tetsubo
Deviant Art: http://ironstaff.deviantart.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsubo57
LL
2015-02-04 16:28:17 UTC
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Post by Tetsubo
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Anonymous Jack
Post by Tetsubo
It may have been a purely personal animosity between Hong and I. I
wanted nothing to do with 4E and he *insisted* that I would in fact
convert. He was wrong. And he became quite abrasive in his insistence.
The vitriol was rather harsh and I could never figure out why.
Ah, thanks. I must've missed quite a bit of goings on with 4E.
I can't imagine insisting another person would love any particular
gaming system. Totally ignoring personal tastes, preferences, etc.
There is no "one game to rule them all."
I think a lot of it came down to the vehemence with which Tetsubo was
attacking 4th ed and some of the "reasoning" behind it.
But as he was correct, the vehemence was justified!
I (rightfully) attacked a game that was not D&D, passing itself off
as D&D. Hong attacked *me*. World of difference.
Not DnD? It's their trademark, so it's DnD wether you like it or not :-P
d***@bin.sh
2015-02-04 20:45:09 UTC
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Post by Tetsubo
I (rightfully) attacked a game that was not D&D, passing itself off as
D&D. Hong attacked *me*. World of difference.
you're not tetsubo.
--
._n_______n_. ***@bin.sh (CARRIER LOST) <http://www.bin.sh/>
| --------- |== -----------------------------------------------------------
I"/""|"|Z7""' "Today is Election Day, and we urge all citizens
lJ | | to vote NO with the weapon of their choice."
|_l -- KViSR Radio
Tetsubo
2015-02-04 20:56:23 UTC
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Post by d***@bin.sh
Post by Tetsubo
I (rightfully) attacked a game that was not D&D, passing itself off as
D&D. Hong attacked *me*. World of difference.
you're not tetsubo.
I am multitudes.
--
Tetsubo
Deviant Art: http://ironstaff.deviantart.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsubo57
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2015-02-04 23:57:16 UTC
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Post by Tetsubo
Post by d***@bin.sh
Post by Tetsubo
I (rightfully) attacked a game that was not D&D, passing
itself off as D&D. Hong attacked *me*. World of difference.
you're not tetsubo.
I am multitudes.
There's medication for that.
--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2015-02-05 01:15:31 UTC
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Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Tetsubo
Post by d***@bin.sh
Post by Tetsubo
I (rightfully) attacked a game that was not D&D, passing
itself off as D&D. Hong attacked *me*. World of difference.
you're not tetsubo.
I am multitudes.
There's medication for that.
Yes, but you can't medicate him without permission, and that means at
least a majority vote in favor.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Tetsubo
2015-02-05 13:18:17 UTC
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Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Tetsubo
Post by d***@bin.sh
Post by Tetsubo
I (rightfully) attacked a game that was not D&D, passing
itself off as D&D. Hong attacked *me*. World of difference.
you're not tetsubo.
I am multitudes.
There's medication for that.
Yes, but you can't medicate him without permission, and that means
at least a majority vote in favor.
You first have to show I pose a risk to myself or the public. I'll run
this past my therapist this morning.
--
Tetsubo
Deviant Art: http://ironstaff.deviantart.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsubo57
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2015-02-05 13:40:12 UTC
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Post by Tetsubo
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Tetsubo
Post by d***@bin.sh
Post by Tetsubo
I (rightfully) attacked a game that was not D&D, passing
itself off as D&D. Hong attacked *me*. World of difference.
you're not tetsubo.
I am multitudes.
There's medication for that.
Yes, but you can't medicate him without permission, and that means
at least a majority vote in favor.
You first have to show I pose a risk to myself or the public. I'll
run this past my therapist this morning.
No, no. That would be if I was espousing medicating you AGAINST your
will. Then we have to show you pose a risk to yourself or others. Here
we were discussing getting your multitudes to agree to medication.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Tetsubo
2015-02-05 15:45:23 UTC
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Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Tetsubo
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Tetsubo
Post by d***@bin.sh
Post by Tetsubo
I (rightfully) attacked a game that was not D&D, passing
itself off as D&D. Hong attacked *me*. World of difference.
you're not tetsubo.
I am multitudes.
There's medication for that.
Yes, but you can't medicate him without permission, and that means
at least a majority vote in favor.
You first have to show I pose a risk to myself or the public. I'll
run this past my therapist this morning.
No, no. That would be if I was espousing medicating you AGAINST
your will. Then we have to show you pose a risk to yourself or others.
Here we were discussing getting your multitudes to agree to medication.
My multitudes are quite happy with cognitive behavior therapy.
--
Tetsubo
Deviant Art: http://ironstaff.deviantart.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsubo57
Joanna Rowland Stuart
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
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Post by Tetsubo
cognitive behavior therapy.
Here's a few cognates and their derivatives

cognosco, cognoscere, cognovi, cognitum - to learn, recognize, know -
cognition, cognizance, cognitive

have, haviour, behave, behaviour - manner of acting or controlling
oneself - behave, behavior, behaviorism, behaviorist.

therapeuein, therapeia, therapia - medical treatment of disease - therapy,
therapies, therapeutic, therapist


Do I need a therapist?


Cheers
JOanna
Tetsubo
2015-02-07 09:28:48 UTC
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Post by Joanna Rowland Stuart
Post by Tetsubo
cognitive behavior therapy.
Here's a few cognates and their derivatives
cognosco, cognoscere, cognovi, cognitum - to learn, recognize, know -
cognition, cognizance, cognitive
have, haviour, behave, behaviour - manner of acting or controlling
oneself - behave, behavior, behaviorism, behaviorist.
therapeuein, therapeia, therapia - medical treatment of disease - therapy,
therapies, therapeutic, therapist
Do I need a therapist?
I don't think I've ever met anyone that didn't.
Post by Joanna Rowland Stuart
Cheers
JOanna
--
Tetsubo
Deviant Art: http://ironstaff.deviantart.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsubo57
Joanna Rowland Stuart
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
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Post by Tetsubo
I don't think I've ever met anyone that didn't.
:-)

Cheers
JOanna
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2015-02-05 17:12:11 UTC
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Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Tetsubo
Post by d***@bin.sh
Post by Tetsubo
I (rightfully) attacked a game that was not D&D, passing
itself off as D&D. Hong attacked *me*. World of difference.
you're not tetsubo.
I am multitudes.
There's medication for that.
Yes, but you can't medicate him without permission, and
that means at
least a majority vote in favor.
I'll get the broom handle.
--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2015-01-30 16:23:04 UTC
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Post by LL
Post by LeSombre
I remember beeing told off by MSB on my very forst post years
ago. "I think negative things of your intelligence" he wrote.
Fond memories.
I often wonder if he's still around of if he moved to something like Reddit or 4Chan...
Maybe he grew up, left mom's basement and became a valuable
member of society? :-)
I met him in person. I'm guessing no, that isn't it.
--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Justisaur
2015-01-30 16:24:07 UTC
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Post by LeSombre
I remember beeing told off by MSB on my very forst post years ago. "I think negative things of your intelligence" he wrote. Fond memories.
I often wonder if he's still around of if he moved to something like Reddit or 4Chan...
I got the impression that he was asked to stop posting after Chris Burke started sending complaints directly to his work, and threatening offline.

I could be totally off base, but that's how I remember it going.

I miss quite a number of people. MSB, Werebat (I found him on facebook, but neither of us posts much there), Malachias Inviticus, Hong Ooi, Bradd W. Szonye are the main ones I remember. The rest of the people I miss still post, just very rarely. :/

There's some pretty good discussions on G+ and the moderation levels are almost as good as they are here. DF is where I discuss most D&D stuff though at least two people were perma-banned that I really liked their posts... I tried to direct them here and/or G+ but no luck.

I need to cross post from G+ and DF more here.

- Justisaur
Tetsubo
2015-01-30 21:44:22 UTC
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Post by Justisaur
Post by LeSombre
I remember beeing told off by MSB on my very forst post years ago. "I think negative things of your intelligence" he wrote. Fond memories.
I often wonder if he's still around of if he moved to something like Reddit or 4Chan...
I got the impression that he was asked to stop posting after Chris Burke started sending complaints directly to his work, and threatening offline.
I could be totally off base, but that's how I remember it going.
I miss quite a number of people. MSB, Werebat (I found him on facebook, but neither of us posts much there), Malachias Inviticus, Hong Ooi, Bradd W. Szonye are the main ones I remember. The rest of the people I miss still post, just very rarely. :/
There's some pretty good discussions on G+ and the moderation levels are almost as good as they are here. DF is where I discuss most D&D stuff though at least two people were perma-banned that I really liked their posts... I tried to direct them here and/or G+ but no luck.
I need to cross post from G+ and DF more here.
- Justisaur
Since YouTube is my main hobby now I *have* to have some involvement
with G+. But I keep it to an absolute minimum. I despise the entire
site. It's integration into YouTube has gone over slightly worse then
the launch of 4E. The whole, 'you *will* use G+, whether you like it or
not' aspect of it rankles me to no end. I don't use Facebook at all.
Other than Usenet and YouTube I have little to no involvement with
social media. But I am a daily vlogger so G+ is always in my life to
some extent.
--
Tetsubo
Deviant Art: http://ironstaff.deviantart.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsubo57
tussock
2015-02-25 13:27:07 UTC
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Post by Justisaur
Post by LeSombre
I remember beeing told off by MSB on my very forst post years ago. "I
think negative things of your intelligence" he wrote. Fond memories.
I often wonder if he's still around of if he moved to something like Reddit or 4Chan...
I got the impression that he was asked to stop posting after Chris Burke
started sending complaints directly to his work, and threatening
offline.
I could be totally off base, but that's how I remember it going.
Should we start a conspiracy theory? I'm guessing 4e happened and he
stopped playing or reading or thinking about or caring about D&D in the
slightest, so arguing about it with assholes on the internet just stopped
being fun. Or maybe I'm projecting. 8/
Post by Justisaur
I miss quite a number of people. MSB, Werebat (I found him on facebook,
but neither of us posts much there), Malachias Inviticus, Hong Ooi,
Bradd W. Szonye are the main ones I remember. The rest of the people I
miss still post, just very rarely. :/
I post over at tgdmb.com, with the same old same old. Really, haven't
played a current edition of D&D (or PF) for near seven years now. 4e just
gave me paroxysms, and I don't even know what that word means. That was
more than three years, two and a bit where they printed books full of
soulless garbage, then they spent another three fucking years doing a
"playtest" without actually listening to anyone about anything at all.

Then changing ever so much about it after the last packet. Just all
the actual numbers, you understand, nothing important.

So now we've got 5e. It's like someone wrote a 64-page version of D&D
that had a printing error and ended up spread over a thousand pages, and
all it says over and over again is how lucky we are to not have rules for
things any more. Tell us in 1500 words or more how stupid Ogres are.
*Three years* they spent writing it, and it's just a great void of a
thing, vaguely trying to leech off some of Pathfinder's limited
popularity, giving E6 a go, again, and just missing the point
*completely*, _again_. Like they heard it was popular but didn't play it
to see what it /meant/.

Unsurprisingly, despite the endless wall of text, the game is not
anything even remotely like as complete as, say, ACKS, which to be fair
is 270 pages of actual rules and punchy game-usable tidbits and mechanics
that fucking *WORK* for playing D&D with, and thus a vastly superior
version of D&D in every way. Even though it's really quite simple and
shallow in some ways, it at least does what it does very well.

I don't even feel sorry for them at WotC, it's just pathetic. The
art's not even coordinated enough to piss anyone off. But the D&D branch
of WotC is a disaster and has been getting worse for over ten years,
their management is completely divorced from the reality of their product
in a way that makes Lorraine Williams seem totally down with the player-
base by comparison.

They're even back to launching a huge number of taketown notices on
people that are *trying* to support 5e on the internet, like it's 1995
and bankruptcy is just around the corner again. Their few productive and
useful fans, they're blaming *them* for ... I'm /guessing/ poor sales.
Leaks from inside say they like to blame their /sales department/ for
that most of the time.

So many rpg message-boards have basically banned criticism of it.
Like people won't notice how drastically few clothes the emperor has on
if no one says anything.

The Oberoni, it abounds. It's a core functionality of the edition
after all. The rules aren't there, which you can totally fix by making
your own on the spot. Huzzah, Mike Mearls, huzzah. <sigh>
Post by Justisaur
There's some pretty good discussions on G+ and the moderation levels are
almost as good as they are here. DF is where I discuss most D&D stuff
though at least two people were perma-banned that I really liked their
posts... I tried to direct them here and/or G+ but no luck.
I spend a bit of time reading here and there, some of the "let's
read" stuff on rpg.net lately is pretty funny, watching people try to
understand how AD&D things worked by reading the books is entertaining in
itself. Someone read the 2e Psi book and didn't notice the infinite power
points tucked away in the back. Barely twitched at the Mind Thrust thing.
Reminds one just how much proper game-design work went into the core
3.0 books, warts and all. Proper destructive playtesting, shame they
ignored the one-round, caster-induced TPKs at high level that bought up.
Post by Justisaur
I need to cross post from G+ and DF more here.
If I had anything to say, I'd probably be saying it. I don't want to
just piss in people's cornflakes when I've little else to contribute.
Unless it's another nostalgia thread. What else am I supposed to remind
people of here?
--
tussock
Tetsubo
2015-02-25 13:45:05 UTC
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Post by tussock
Post by Justisaur
Post by LeSombre
I remember beeing told off by MSB on my very forst post years ago. "I
think negative things of your intelligence" he wrote. Fond memories.
I often wonder if he's still around of if he moved to something like Reddit or 4Chan...
I got the impression that he was asked to stop posting after Chris Burke
started sending complaints directly to his work, and threatening
offline.
I could be totally off base, but that's how I remember it going.
Should we start a conspiracy theory? I'm guessing 4e happened and he
stopped playing or reading or thinking about or caring about D&D in the
slightest, so arguing about it with assholes on the internet just stopped
being fun. Or maybe I'm projecting. 8/
Post by Justisaur
I miss quite a number of people. MSB, Werebat (I found him on facebook,
but neither of us posts much there), Malachias Inviticus, Hong Ooi,
Bradd W. Szonye are the main ones I remember. The rest of the people I
miss still post, just very rarely. :/
I post over at tgdmb.com, with the same old same old. Really, haven't
played a current edition of D&D (or PF) for near seven years now. 4e just
gave me paroxysms, and I don't even know what that word means. That was
more than three years, two and a bit where they printed books full of
soulless garbage, then they spent another three fucking years doing a
"playtest" without actually listening to anyone about anything at all.
Then changing ever so much about it after the last packet. Just all
the actual numbers, you understand, nothing important.
So now we've got 5e. It's like someone wrote a 64-page version of D&D
that had a printing error and ended up spread over a thousand pages, and
all it says over and over again is how lucky we are to not have rules for
things any more. Tell us in 1500 words or more how stupid Ogres are.
*Three years* they spent writing it, and it's just a great void of a
thing, vaguely trying to leech off some of Pathfinder's limited
popularity, giving E6 a go, again, and just missing the point
*completely*, _again_. Like they heard it was popular but didn't play it
to see what it /meant/.
Unsurprisingly, despite the endless wall of text, the game is not
anything even remotely like as complete as, say, ACKS, which to be fair
is 270 pages of actual rules and punchy game-usable tidbits and mechanics
that fucking *WORK* for playing D&D with, and thus a vastly superior
version of D&D in every way. Even though it's really quite simple and
shallow in some ways, it at least does what it does very well.
I don't even feel sorry for them at WotC, it's just pathetic. The
art's not even coordinated enough to piss anyone off. But the D&D branch
of WotC is a disaster and has been getting worse for over ten years,
their management is completely divorced from the reality of their product
in a way that makes Lorraine Williams seem totally down with the player-
base by comparison.
They're even back to launching a huge number of taketown notices on
people that are *trying* to support 5e on the internet, like it's 1995
and bankruptcy is just around the corner again. Their few productive and
useful fans, they're blaming *them* for ... I'm /guessing/ poor sales.
Leaks from inside say they like to blame their /sales department/ for
that most of the time.
So many rpg message-boards have basically banned criticism of it.
Like people won't notice how drastically few clothes the emperor has on
if no one says anything.
The Oberoni, it abounds. It's a core functionality of the edition
after all. The rules aren't there, which you can totally fix by making
your own on the spot. Huzzah, Mike Mearls, huzzah. <sigh>
Post by Justisaur
There's some pretty good discussions on G+ and the moderation levels are
almost as good as they are here. DF is where I discuss most D&D stuff
though at least two people were perma-banned that I really liked their
posts... I tried to direct them here and/or G+ but no luck.
I spend a bit of time reading here and there, some of the "let's
read" stuff on rpg.net lately is pretty funny, watching people try to
understand how AD&D things worked by reading the books is entertaining in
itself. Someone read the 2e Psi book and didn't notice the infinite power
points tucked away in the back. Barely twitched at the Mind Thrust thing.
Reminds one just how much proper game-design work went into the core
3.0 books, warts and all. Proper destructive playtesting, shame they
ignored the one-round, caster-induced TPKs at high level that bought up.
Post by Justisaur
I need to cross post from G+ and DF more here.
If I had anything to say, I'd probably be saying it. I don't want to
just piss in people's cornflakes when I've little else to contribute.
Unless it's another nostalgia thread. What else am I supposed to remind
people of here?
I never had any plans on reading 5E, any more than I will ever look at
4E. But you make it sound even worse than I had heard. If I wanted to
play D&D today I would use Pathfinder. Probably limited to the core book
with Psionics Unleashed thrown in. Heck, I might consider a pure
psionics game without any magic at all. That would solve a few issues. I
still enjoy visiting this group, even if it is mostly a ghost town now a
days. I try to post when I can think of something. Light a candle rather
than curse the darkness sort of thing.
--
Tetsubo
Deviant Art: http://ironstaff.deviantart.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsubo57
tussock
2015-02-26 12:09:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
<snip: 5e>
Post by Tetsubo
Post by tussock
If I had anything to say, I'd probably be saying it. I don't
want to just piss in people's cornflakes when I've little else to
contribute. Unless it's another nostalgia thread. What else am I
supposed to remind people of here?
I never had any plans on reading 5E, any more than I will ever
look at 4E. But you make it sound even worse than I had heard.
A bunch of people will play it and enjoy it as a nostalgia trip. You
roll the dice, things fall down and die, eventually. It's a bit like
someone very carefully copied the underlying odds of 4th edition and
wrote a great deal of words that remind people of older versions of D&D
(and Pathfinder!) on top of it, chucked out the mechanics that didn't
work, and there's just not all that much left.
Post by Tetsubo
If I wanted to play D&D today I would use Pathfinder. Probably limited
to the core book with Psionics Unleashed thrown in. Heck, I might
consider a pure psionics game without any magic at all. That would
solve a few issues. I still enjoy visiting this group, even if it is
mostly a ghost town now a days. I try to post when I can think of
something. Light a candle rather than curse the darkness sort of thing.
Everything WotC does just make PF look better. At least Paizo
basically tries to serve the desires of their customer base, even if
they're not the greatest team of game designers ever. And you really do
need to use Ninjas instead of Rogues, it's a patch.
--
tussock
Tetsubo
2015-02-26 12:48:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tussock
<snip: 5e>
Post by Tetsubo
Post by tussock
If I had anything to say, I'd probably be saying it. I don't
want to just piss in people's cornflakes when I've little else to
contribute. Unless it's another nostalgia thread. What else am I
supposed to remind people of here?
I never had any plans on reading 5E, any more than I will ever
look at 4E. But you make it sound even worse than I had heard.
A bunch of people will play it and enjoy it as a nostalgia trip. You
roll the dice, things fall down and die, eventually. It's a bit like
someone very carefully copied the underlying odds of 4th edition and
wrote a great deal of words that remind people of older versions of D&D
(and Pathfinder!) on top of it, chucked out the mechanics that didn't
work, and there's just not all that much left.
I can do that with Radiance. And I like Radiance. Plus, it's free.
Post by tussock
Post by Tetsubo
If I wanted to play D&D today I would use Pathfinder. Probably limited
to the core book with Psionics Unleashed thrown in. Heck, I might
consider a pure psionics game without any magic at all. That would
solve a few issues. I still enjoy visiting this group, even if it is
mostly a ghost town now a days. I try to post when I can think of
something. Light a candle rather than curse the darkness sort of thing.
Everything WotC does just make PF look better. At least Paizo
basically tries to serve the desires of their customer base, even if
they're not the greatest team of game designers ever. And you really do
need to use Ninjas instead of Rogues, it's a patch.
I'll have to look at Ninja again. But I like Rogues as they are as a
great skill class. I have a character idea for a Rogue with a specialty
in languages that wants to become a linguists professor. He just uses
less than conventional means of acquiring his needed research texts.
It's not his fault that wealthy folks keep locking up all those valuable
books. They should be in a research library anyway... preferably one
located in a different country.
--
Tetsubo
Deviant Art: http://ironstaff.deviantart.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsubo57
Justisaur
2015-02-25 16:12:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tussock
I post over at tgdmb.com, with the same old same old. Really, haven't
played a current edition of D&D (or PF) for near seven years now. 4e just
gave me paroxysms, and I don't even know what that word means. That was
more than three years, two and a bit where they printed books full of
soulless garbage, then they spent another three fucking years doing a
"playtest" without actually listening to anyone about anything at all.
Then changing ever so much about it after the last packet. Just all
the actual numbers, you understand, nothing important.
So now we've got 5e. It's like someone wrote a 64-page version of D&D
that had a printing error and ended up spread over a thousand pages, and
all it says over and over again is how lucky we are to not have rules for
things any more. Tell us in 1500 words or more how stupid Ogres are.
*Three years* they spent writing it, and it's just a great void of a
thing, vaguely trying to leech off some of Pathfinder's limited
popularity, giving E6 a go, again, and just missing the point
*completely*, _again_. Like they heard it was popular but didn't play it
to see what it /meant/.
I hate to defend 5e... but I am playing it with friends. It seems o.k. to me, there's a ton of stuff I don't like - most of it the same stuff I don't like about 3e, and some of the stuff I didn't like about 4e as well, although some new stuff too. There seems to be much improved too. The race descriptions at least were inspiring.
Post by tussock
Unsurprisingly, despite the endless wall of text, the game is not
anything even remotely like as complete as, say, ACKS, which to be fair
is 270 pages of actual rules and punchy game-usable tidbits and mechanics
that fucking *WORK* for playing D&D with, and thus a vastly superior
version of D&D in every way. Even though it's really quite simple and
shallow in some ways, it at least does what it does very well.
I won't argue that, I haven't really looked at ACKS, I've heard good things though. I'm running Labyrinth Lord which just seems so much better than anything else D&D I've tried, it's like night and day.
Post by tussock
I don't even feel sorry for them at WotC, it's just pathetic. The
art's not even coordinated enough to piss anyone off. But the D&D branch
of WotC is a disaster and has been getting worse for over ten years,
their management is completely divorced from the reality of their product
in a way that makes Lorraine Williams seem totally down with the player-
base by comparison.
Part of the issue is the majority of the playtesters were people who liked 4e, not the larger base of 3e/pathfinder players they wanted to get back.
Post by tussock
They're even back to launching a huge number of taketown notices on
people that are *trying* to support 5e on the internet, like it's 1995
That pisses me off, and really makes me not want to support them. When they started doing that, that's when I said I wouldn't buy any more products from them.
Post by tussock
and bankruptcy is just around the corner again. Their few productive and
useful fans, they're blaming *them* for ... I'm /guessing/ poor sales.
Leaks from inside say they like to blame their /sales department/ for
that most of the time.
From what I understand their sales are far beyond what they expected. The majority of people I see online even on DF seem to just love 5e. I'm wondering when the bloom is going to fall off the rose and people will see it for what it is.
Post by tussock
So many rpg message-boards have basically banned criticism of it.
Like people won't notice how drastically few clothes the emperor has on
if no one says anything.
I've been criticizing it on DF, as have a few others, but the flames from the blind fanboi have been getting pretty high, and mods have been involved getting people to calm down.
Post by tussock
The Oberoni, it abounds. It's a core functionality of the edition
after all. The rules aren't there, which you can totally fix by making
your own on the spot. Huzzah, Mike Mearls, huzzah. <sigh>
Had to look Oberoni up. I like the point.
Post by tussock
Post by Justisaur
There's some pretty good discussions on G+ and the moderation levels are
almost as good as they are here. DF is where I discuss most D&D stuff
though at least two people were perma-banned that I really liked their
posts... I tried to direct them here and/or G+ but no luck.
I spend a bit of time reading here and there, some of the "let's
read" stuff on rpg.net lately is pretty funny, watching people try to
understand how AD&D things worked by reading the books is entertaining in
itself. Someone read the 2e Psi book and didn't notice the infinite power
points tucked away in the back. Barely twitched at the Mind Thrust thing.
Reminds one just how much proper game-design work went into the core
3.0 books, warts and all. Proper destructive playtesting, shame they
ignored the one-round, caster-induced TPKs at high level that bought up.
And that's my main problem with 3e. It all looks like a precision clockwork machine on the surface... it's just powered by a bad nuclear reactor that melts down.
Post by tussock
Post by Justisaur
I need to cross post from G+ and DF more here.
If I had anything to say, I'd probably be saying it. I don't want to
just piss in people's cornflakes when I've little else to contribute.
Unless it's another nostalgia thread. What else am I supposed to remind
people of here?
I don't know, just what positive you're doing. What you like about ACKS, etc.
tussock
2015-02-26 13:29:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
<snip: grargh!>
Post by Justisaur
I hate to defend 5e... but I am playing it with friends. It seems o.k.
to me, there's a ton of stuff I don't like - most of it the same stuff I
don't like about 3e, and some of the stuff I didn't like about 4e as
well, although some new stuff too. There seems to be much improved too.
The race descriptions at least were inspiring.
Enjoy.
Post by Justisaur
I'm running Labyrinth Lord which just seems so much better than
anything else D&D I've tried, it's like night and day.
A lot of the clones are things where people wrote down what they
played for a lot of years. That helps.

<Re: 5e>
Post by Justisaur
Part of the issue is the majority of the playtesters were people who
liked 4e, not the larger base of 3e/pathfinder players they wanted to
get back.
Maybe. I saw people from all sides on their boards, and on the
comment threads under the downloads. They never asked for targeted
feedback, never really organised anything, never had the staff to
actually read what was coming in. I'm pretty sure it was just marketing.
Post by Justisaur
Post by tussock
They're even back to launching a huge number of taketown notices on
people that are *trying* to support 5e on the internet, like it's 1995
That pisses me off, and really makes me not want to support them. When
they started doing that, that's when I said I wouldn't buy any more
products from them.
It completely bemuses me. Active volunteer game support people are
being forced to change to supporting Pathfinder. It's crazy.
Post by Justisaur
Post by tussock
and bankruptcy is just around the corner again. Their few productive
and useful fans, they're blaming *them* for ... I'm /guessing/ poor
sales. Leaks from inside say they like to blame their /sales
department/ for that most of the time.
From what I understand their sales are far beyond what they expected.
The majority of people I see online even on DF seem to just love 5e.
I'm wondering when the bloom is going to fall off the rose and people
will see it for what it is.
They've got no product schedule, so who knows. They don't seem to be
hiring, or rushing to fill demand for more adventures, so it's not that
good. They can't even figure out open licencing, and the current
licensees don't seem that happy.

Plus, 4e got plenty of vocal supporter love well past when they
stopped printing books for it. D&D is a huge brand that has changed
people's lives and they will fight the good fight (or the dirty one)
regardless.


I'd love if it was huge. I would. I just can't see it. Even the
arguments that do show up are like ...

A: Gaping hole in the rules.
B: Oberoni fallacy.
A: Seriously?

It's clever really. There's so little there people can't even argue
about it properly. Just point out things which are not there, and have
the fans tell you how easy that is to fix, somehow, mumble-mumble.
Post by Justisaur
Post by tussock
[AD&D] Reminds one just how much proper game-design work went into
the core 3.0 books, warts and all. Proper destructive playtesting,
shame they ignored the one-round, caster-induced TPKs at high level
that bought up.
And that's my main problem with 3e. It all looks like a precision
clockwork machine on the surface... it's just powered by a bad nuclear
reactor that melts down.
It runs alright up through mid levels. The classes and monsters all
sort of work up to near level 13 PCs and CR 14? maybe, assuming the non-
casters have a bunch more magic than 3.5 allows. Secret class feature:
free artifact sword.
Post by Justisaur
Post by tussock
If I had anything to say, I'd probably be saying it. I don't want
to just piss in people's cornflakes when I've little else to
contribute. Unless it's another nostalgia thread. What else am I
supposed to remind people of here?
I don't know, just what positive you're doing.
None in that post. Reminding everyone of tussock, perhaps.
Post by Justisaur
What you like about ACKS, etc.
So, recently, I was considering stat blocks for monsters. I compared
Ogres through various editions and clones. They're such a simple monster,
it's kinda hard to go wrong unless your basic format is a disaster.

So AD&D is fine, extras hidden in the DMG. Basic is fine, for a
dungeon bash. 2nd edition of course did the full-page world-building
thing so it gets a bit of useless filler that is often wrong, but there's
a lot of game useful rules in there somewhere too. 3e they're fine, for a
dungeon bash, if a little ... numerically verbose.

Pathfinder is 3e plus a wandering tale of how to gross out your
players. They do that, it is what it is, like ancient story-telling. I
mostly enjoy it.

ACKS monsters are about a half page of gamey crunch. Even the origin
story is something players can do. Ogres have social structure you can
game, dice for allies and slaves to rescue and diced morale and so on,
everything is something immediately useful to the DM when an Ogre is
there, or when laying out an Ogre lair, and it spits out Ogre-appropriate
treasure off random dice. It tells you a lot about them at the same time.

Every sentence is like: they do this stuff, % chance, using that rule
with these dice. And it all adds up to something cool for the game world.

The whole game's like that. There's some stuff about their original
multi-year house game that became ACKS spread through it as examples,
which can be a bit talky, but they're all based off the actual rules and
you can just do that too.

It's got low-level survival play, it's got mid-level power-
accumulation play, it's got high-level political play, all with highly
functional rules. All crunchy with quick and clear resolution. They tell
you what it can do, and it gets on and does it.


Which seems like, games should do that. But most RPGs the rules just
don't support what they talk about in a lot of ways, some of the time the
rules don't even work. ACKS works, it's /full/ of rules that you will use
and they work.

A Wizard did it? How often does that show up? In ACKS /your/ Wizard
can do it. With the rules. All of it. A Fighter can fight well too. Does
what it says on the tin.
--
tussock
Tetsubo
2015-02-26 15:25:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tussock
ACKS monsters are about a half page of gamey crunch. Even the origin
story is something players can do. Ogres have social structure you can
game, dice for allies and slaves to rescue and diced morale and so on,
everything is something immediately useful to the DM when an Ogre is
there, or when laying out an Ogre lair, and it spits out Ogre-appropriate
treasure off random dice. It tells you a lot about them at the same time.
Every sentence is like: they do this stuff, % chance, using that rule
with these dice. And it all adds up to something cool for the game world.
The whole game's like that. There's some stuff about their original
multi-year house game that became ACKS spread through it as examples,
which can be a bit talky, but they're all based off the actual rules and
you can just do that too.
It's got low-level survival play, it's got mid-level power-
accumulation play, it's got high-level political play, all with highly
functional rules. All crunchy with quick and clear resolution. They tell
you what it can do, and it gets on and does it.
Which seems like, games should do that. But most RPGs the rules just
don't support what they talk about in a lot of ways, some of the time the
rules don't even work. ACKS works, it's /full/ of rules that you will use
and they work.
A Wizard did it? How often does that show up? In ACKS /your/ Wizard
can do it. With the rules. All of it. A Fighter can fight well too. Does
what it says on the tin.
I would really love for a game to actually do what you just described.
But every time someone sells me on such a thing I am disappointed. Often
in spectacular ways. Like HackMaster 5E for example. A game I was
repeatedly asked to review *as a game*. It was not a functioning game.
Many times when people tell me they have found the Holy Grail of gaming
systems it just means that the game aligns with their own personal
biases and prejudice. This is not a dig at you. We all do this. We are
all often blind to our own biases and prejudices. This has especially
been true for me when looking at OSR systems. Even more so when they
claim to be 'simple'. They often just end up being incomplete to the
extent they are almost unplayable. To a jaded soul such as myself, why
should I read ACKS?
--
Tetsubo
Deviant Art: http://ironstaff.deviantart.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsubo57
Justisaur
2015-02-26 17:00:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tetsubo
Post by tussock
ACKS monsters are about a half page of gamey crunch. Even the origin
story is something players can do. Ogres have social structure you can
game, dice for allies and slaves to rescue and diced morale and so on,
everything is something immediately useful to the DM when an Ogre is
there, or when laying out an Ogre lair, and it spits out Ogre-appropriate
treasure off random dice. It tells you a lot about them at the same time.
Every sentence is like: they do this stuff, % chance, using that rule
with these dice. And it all adds up to something cool for the game world.
The whole game's like that. There's some stuff about their original
multi-year house game that became ACKS spread through it as examples,
which can be a bit talky, but they're all based off the actual rules and
you can just do that too.
It's got low-level survival play, it's got mid-level power-
accumulation play, it's got high-level political play, all with highly
functional rules. All crunchy with quick and clear resolution. They tell
you what it can do, and it gets on and does it.
Which seems like, games should do that. But most RPGs the rules just
don't support what they talk about in a lot of ways, some of the time the
rules don't even work. ACKS works, it's /full/ of rules that you will use
and they work.
A Wizard did it? How often does that show up? In ACKS /your/ Wizard
can do it. With the rules. All of it. A Fighter can fight well too. Does
what it says on the tin.
I would really love for a game to actually do what you just described.
But every time someone sells me on such a thing I am disappointed. Often
in spectacular ways. Like HackMaster 5E for example. A game I was
repeatedly asked to review *as a game*. It was not a functioning game.
Many times when people tell me they have found the Holy Grail of gaming
systems it just means that the game aligns with their own personal
biases and prejudice. This is not a dig at you. We all do this. We are
all often blind to our own biases and prejudices. This has especially
been true for me when looking at OSR systems. Even more so when they
claim to be 'simple'. They often just end up being incomplete to the
extent they are almost unplayable. To a jaded soul such as myself, why
should I read ACKS?
ACKS "Adventurer Conqueror King System" is Basic/Expert (Moldvey) based OSR though I understand it strays a bit more forom B/X than LL which I like quite a bit. Based on what you've said before on your preferences I doubt you'd like it.

I've heard lots of good things elsewhere about it, I'd probably like it, but no free pdfs to try/check it out is a hard sell these days for OSR.

Doesn't really matter to me if I'd like it or not anyway, I'm having a bit of an issue even getting interest in 1e, and may have to go to 5e just to get players :(

- Justisaur
tussock
2015-02-28 13:51:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Tetsubo wrote:

<snip: ACKS>
Post by Tetsubo
I would really love for a game to actually do what you just
described. But every time someone sells me on such a thing I am
disappointed. Often in spectacular ways. Like HackMaster 5E for
example. A game I was repeatedly asked to review *as a game*. It was
not a functioning game.
Yeah. I can never quite work out what that lot are up to.
Post by Tetsubo
Many times when people tell me they have found the Holy Grail of gaming
systems it just means that the game aligns with their own personal
biases and prejudice. This is not a dig at you. We all do this.
Absolutely. I don't even think ACKS is the best thing out there from
a game perspective, but it's /so/ well written. Fulfills it's own goals
in a way rarely seen, which are not at all modest, but are their own.

Like, 3e D&D said it supported 20 levels of play, that was bullshit,
long class tables are no true support. ACKS does what it says.
Post by Tetsubo
We are all often blind to our own biases and prejudices. This has
especially been true for me when looking at OSR systems. Even more so
when they claim to be 'simple'.
"ACKS supports your game style with simple, fast-playing game
mechanics." I think that's true, for /their/ game style, which is very
broad but not all-inclusive.

"With [ACKS] you can ... Build and run a living world for adventure
on a grand scale. With game mechanics built to support emergent play.
ACKS is the ultimate RPG for sandbox campaigns."

I consider that a seriously ballsy claim, and the emergent play rules
style is brilliant, no contest, that's the thing which strikes me most.

Sandbox, obviously their aim throughout. There's not much else, the
classes have their own in-built high level goals that support various
kinds of adventure for highly cooperative team play and also just
spending some time working shit out between sessions. You don't need a
plot or anything, but they recommend some regardless.

I'm not sure it's the ultimate at all, but it's better at sandbox
than 3e was at the "back to the dungeon" marketing thing. 3e's just not a
great dungeon-bash game. ACKS is a *really good* sandbox tool, but
probably not the ultimate if I'm being picky. Very close though.


It could have had more modern character generation stuff, for
instance. That's it being about their nostalgia for B/X. Bits benefit
from what they kept, a lot doesn't.
Post by Tetsubo
They often just end up being incomplete to the extent they are almost
unplayable. To a jaded soul such as myself, why should I read ACKS?
Well, a lot of it is stuff I know you haven't liked in the past. It's
got level limits, separate demi-human classes (which counteract to some
extent), old style saves, a really cool "but did you die" post-combat
roll on a table for people who fell (use healing quickly for bonuses
later), their own variant d20 system, it's got a bit of a creeping
darkness vibe where the PCs will often be part of the problem (or not,
it's left open to the PCs), it's 3d6 in order stats (roll 5 PCs, keep any
3, play until dead, other 2 become NPCs) with 13-15 +1, 16-17 +2, and 18
+3. Old style five saves. There's less knobs and dials on a character,
(but there's a lot of genuine variety in what they do have).

The rules are slightly loose in one or two places, suggestions and
options that they should have just nailed down without any trouble at
all. The old saves are slightly open to interpretive rulings, though
vastly tighter than old B/X with most stuff clearly called out.


But, quick, simple? Hell yes. The rolling system is /different/ so
that's annoying, and they didn't /really/ need to do that. But it is very
clean if you just ignore the fact it's neither d20 nor B/X mechanics,
just /similar/. The small numbers it works with are really quite good,
but it's still a variant.



What am I doing? I should review the thing myself. Or I just did.
Something. You, Tetsubo, should read it as an example of how RPG books
should be written. The sheer completeness and utility of the thing. It's
a gold standard, for a B/X clone with many rules you personally won't
want a bar of. The pdf is *very* well internally referenced.
--
tussock
Tetsubo
2015-02-28 14:07:43 UTC
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Post by tussock
<snip: ACKS>
Post by Tetsubo
I would really love for a game to actually do what you just
described. But every time someone sells me on such a thing I am
disappointed. Often in spectacular ways. Like HackMaster 5E for
example. A game I was repeatedly asked to review *as a game*. It was
not a functioning game.
Yeah. I can never quite work out what that lot are up to.
Post by Tetsubo
Many times when people tell me they have found the Holy Grail of gaming
systems it just means that the game aligns with their own personal
biases and prejudice. This is not a dig at you. We all do this.
Absolutely. I don't even think ACKS is the best thing out there from
a game perspective, but it's /so/ well written. Fulfills it's own goals
in a way rarely seen, which are not at all modest, but are their own.
Like, 3e D&D said it supported 20 levels of play, that was bullshit,
long class tables are no true support. ACKS does what it says.
Post by Tetsubo
We are all often blind to our own biases and prejudices. This has
especially been true for me when looking at OSR systems. Even more so
when they claim to be 'simple'.
"ACKS supports your game style with simple, fast-playing game
mechanics." I think that's true, for /their/ game style, which is very
broad but not all-inclusive.
"With [ACKS] you can ... Build and run a living world for adventure
on a grand scale. With game mechanics built to support emergent play.
ACKS is the ultimate RPG for sandbox campaigns."
I consider that a seriously ballsy claim, and the emergent play rules
style is brilliant, no contest, that's the thing which strikes me most.
Sandbox, obviously their aim throughout. There's not much else, the
classes have their own in-built high level goals that support various
kinds of adventure for highly cooperative team play and also just
spending some time working shit out between sessions. You don't need a
plot or anything, but they recommend some regardless.
I'm not sure it's the ultimate at all, but it's better at sandbox
than 3e was at the "back to the dungeon" marketing thing. 3e's just not a
great dungeon-bash game. ACKS is a *really good* sandbox tool, but
probably not the ultimate if I'm being picky. Very close though.
It could have had more modern character generation stuff, for
instance. That's it being about their nostalgia for B/X. Bits benefit
from what they kept, a lot doesn't.
Post by Tetsubo
They often just end up being incomplete to the extent they are almost
unplayable. To a jaded soul such as myself, why should I read ACKS?
Well, a lot of it is stuff I know you haven't liked in the past. It's
got level limits, separate demi-human classes (which counteract to some
extent), old style saves, a really cool "but did you die" post-combat
roll on a table for people who fell (use healing quickly for bonuses
later), their own variant d20 system, it's got a bit of a creeping
darkness vibe where the PCs will often be part of the problem (or not,
it's left open to the PCs), it's 3d6 in order stats (roll 5 PCs, keep any
3, play until dead, other 2 become NPCs) with 13-15 +1, 16-17 +2, and 18
+3. Old style five saves. There's less knobs and dials on a character,
(but there's a lot of genuine variety in what they do have).
The rules are slightly loose in one or two places, suggestions and
options that they should have just nailed down without any trouble at
all. The old saves are slightly open to interpretive rulings, though
vastly tighter than old B/X with most stuff clearly called out.
But, quick, simple? Hell yes. The rolling system is /different/ so
that's annoying, and they didn't /really/ need to do that. But it is very
clean if you just ignore the fact it's neither d20 nor B/X mechanics,
just /similar/. The small numbers it works with are really quite good,
but it's still a variant.
What am I doing? I should review the thing myself. Or I just did.
Something. You, Tetsubo, should read it as an example of how RPG books
should be written. The sheer completeness and utility of the thing. It's
a gold standard, for a B/X clone with many rules you personally won't
want a bar of. The pdf is *very* well internally referenced.
I take your words with all due respect and seriousness. You are one of
the most reliable posters on this group. I *trust* you. What you have
said about design and structure I do not doubt. But... life is finite.
My game book reading hours are limited. I have three books in my queue
that I need to read. Books I was given gratis as review copies. Ones
that I feel obligated to get through and review. I am also trying to
work my way through Deathstalker II as I am apparently a masochist.
Reading a game that possess the negative traits you mention doesn't seem
like a good time to me at this point in life. You know me pretty well.
The things you mention that I would not like are things I do not like.
Things I consider game-breaking. I will not dismiss a read of ACKS
off-hand. I'm just not going to be adding it to my gaming book queue any
time soon. Thank you for your detailed and thorough reply.
--
Tetsubo
Deviant Art: http://ironstaff.deviantart.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsubo57
tussock
2015-03-03 01:32:22 UTC
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Post by Tetsubo
Thank you for your detailed and thorough reply.
Cheers. Usual for me, I read something and get thinking about how it
could be better, which means clarifying my thoughts on what exactly isn't
quite right about it, despite liking it very much.

Nailing down which bits I'm liking, and which bits are just sort of
there for the ride, it's tricky. Sometimes it's a wall of text. But I do
enjoy the process. 8]
--
tussock
JimP
2015-02-25 18:32:22 UTC
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Post by tussock
Post by Justisaur
Post by LeSombre
I remember beeing told off by MSB on my very forst post years ago. "I
think negative things of your intelligence" he wrote. Fond memories.
I often wonder if he's still around of if he moved to something like Reddit or 4Chan...
I got the impression that he was asked to stop posting after Chris Burke
started sending complaints directly to his work, and threatening
offline.
I could be totally off base, but that's how I remember it going.
Should we start a conspiracy theory? I'm guessing 4e happened and he
stopped playing or reading or thinking about or caring about D&D in the
slightest, so arguing about it with assholes on the internet just stopped
being fun. Or maybe I'm projecting. 8/
I bought th 5E books; PHB, MM, and DMG; because one of my players tol
me it was almost near to 1E.

And Mars is near to Pluto, in astronomical terms.

The first 2.5 chapters of the DMG is on game world creation and where
to put the inner and outer planes. Gee, I designed a game world
without using a book.

THe only thing 5E has going for it I like, is the layout of the DMG
and PHB is far better tahn 1E and 2E books.

Other than that, pretty much garbage.
--
JimP.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2015-02-25 20:37:40 UTC
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Post by JimP
THe only thing 5E has going for it I like, is the layout of the
DMG and PHB is far better tahn 1E and 2E books.
Damning with faint praise, indeed. Other than C&S, there aren't a lot
of books that don't have better layout (and art) than 1E.
--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
JimP
2015-02-26 00:41:36 UTC
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On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 13:37:40 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by JimP
THe only thing 5E has going for it I like, is the layout of the
DMG and PHB is far better tahn 1E and 2E books.
Damning with faint praise, indeed. Other than C&S, there aren't a lot
of books that don't have better layout (and art) than 1E.
I spent about $100 I shouldn't have spent. The books are better laid
out format wise. But I wasted that money.
--
JimP.
Ubiquitous
2015-03-25 14:08:19 UTC
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Post by tussock
So now we've got 5e. It's like someone wrote a 64-page version of D&D
that had a printing error and ended up spread over a thousand pages, and
all it says over and over again is how lucky we are to not have rules for
things any more. Tell us in 1500 words or more how stupid Ogres are.
*Three years* they spent writing it, and it's just a great void of a
thing, vaguely trying to leech off some of Pathfinder's limited
popularity, giving E6 a go, again, and just missing the point
*completely*, _again_. Like they heard it was popular but didn't play it
to see what it /meant/.
Unsurprisingly, despite the endless wall of text, the game is not
anything even remotely like as complete as, say, ACKS, which to be fair
is 270 pages of actual rules and punchy game-usable tidbits and mechanics
that fucking *WORK* for playing D&D with, and thus a vastly superior
version of D&D in every way. Even though it's really quite simple and
shallow in some ways, it at least does what it does very well.
I don't even feel sorry for them at WotC, it's just pathetic. The
art's not even coordinated enough to piss anyone off. But the D&D branch
of WotC is a disaster and has been getting worse for over ten years,
their management is completely divorced from the reality of their product
in a way that makes Lorraine Williams seem totally down with the player-
base by comparison.
They're even back to launching a huge number of taketown notices on
people that are *trying* to support 5e on the internet, like it's 1995
and bankruptcy is just around the corner again. Their few productive and
useful fans, they're blaming *them* for ... I'm /guessing/ poor sales.
Leaks from inside say they like to blame their /sales department/ for
that most of the time.
So many rpg message-boards have basically banned criticism of it.
Like people won't notice how drastically few clothes the emperor has on
if no one says anything.
The Oberoni, it abounds. It's a core functionality of the edition
after all. The rules aren't there, which you can totally fix by making
your own on the spot. Huzzah, Mike Mearls, huzzah. <sigh>
So 5th edition is THAT bad, eh?

I haven't played D&D in YEARS b/c our group broke up and the campaign went off
the rails when someone played a Master of (Too) Many Forms and never took
damage b/c he spent all his time as a Troll (or sub-type).



--
"If Barack Obama isn't careful, he will become the Neville Chamberlain
of the 21st century."
JimP
2015-03-25 15:09:38 UTC
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Post by Ubiquitous
Post by tussock
So now we've got 5e. It's like someone wrote a 64-page version of D&D
that had a printing error and ended up spread over a thousand pages, and
all it says over and over again is how lucky we are to not have rules for
things any more. Tell us in 1500 words or more how stupid Ogres are.
*Three years* they spent writing it, and it's just a great void of a
thing, vaguely trying to leech off some of Pathfinder's limited
popularity, giving E6 a go, again, and just missing the point
*completely*, _again_. Like they heard it was popular but didn't play it
to see what it /meant/.
Unsurprisingly, despite the endless wall of text, the game is not
anything even remotely like as complete as, say, ACKS, which to be fair
is 270 pages of actual rules and punchy game-usable tidbits and mechanics
that fucking *WORK* for playing D&D with, and thus a vastly superior
version of D&D in every way. Even though it's really quite simple and
shallow in some ways, it at least does what it does very well.
I don't even feel sorry for them at WotC, it's just pathetic. The
art's not even coordinated enough to piss anyone off. But the D&D branch
of WotC is a disaster and has been getting worse for over ten years,
their management is completely divorced from the reality of their product
in a way that makes Lorraine Williams seem totally down with the player-
base by comparison.
They're even back to launching a huge number of taketown notices on
people that are *trying* to support 5e on the internet, like it's 1995
and bankruptcy is just around the corner again. Their few productive and
useful fans, they're blaming *them* for ... I'm /guessing/ poor sales.
Leaks from inside say they like to blame their /sales department/ for
that most of the time.
So many rpg message-boards have basically banned criticism of it.
Like people won't notice how drastically few clothes the emperor has on
if no one says anything.
The Oberoni, it abounds. It's a core functionality of the edition
after all. The rules aren't there, which you can totally fix by making
your own on the spot. Huzzah, Mike Mearls, huzzah. <sigh>
So 5th edition is THAT bad, eh?
I haven't played D&D in YEARS b/c our group broke up and the campaign went off
the rails when someone played a Master of (Too) Many Forms and never took
damage b/c he spent all his time as a Troll (or sub-type).
I bought the 5E books, PHB, MM, and DMG, on a recommendation of a
relative. The books are better laid out for the material than 1E and
2E books are. I read them. Walked through a sample scenario after
buying the starter set.

But that is the only nice thing I can say about 5E.
--
JimP.
Ubiquitous
2015-03-27 12:55:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by JimP
Post by Ubiquitous
Post by tussock
So now we've got 5e. It's like someone wrote a 64-page version of D&D
that had a printing error and ended up spread over a thousand pages, and
all it says over and over again is how lucky we are to not have rules for
things any more. Tell us in 1500 words or more how stupid Ogres are.
*Three years* they spent writing it, and it's just a great void of a
thing, vaguely trying to leech off some of Pathfinder's limited
popularity, giving E6 a go, again, and just missing the point
*completely*, _again_. Like they heard it was popular but didn't play it
to see what it /meant/.
Unsurprisingly, despite the endless wall of text, the game is not
anything even remotely like as complete as, say, ACKS, which to be fair
is 270 pages of actual rules and punchy game-usable tidbits and mechanics
that fucking *WORK* for playing D&D with, and thus a vastly superior
version of D&D in every way. Even though it's really quite simple and
shallow in some ways, it at least does what it does very well.
I don't even feel sorry for them at WotC, it's just pathetic. The
art's not even coordinated enough to piss anyone off. But the D&D branch
of WotC is a disaster and has been getting worse for over ten years,
their management is completely divorced from the reality of their product
in a way that makes Lorraine Williams seem totally down with the player-
base by comparison.
They're even back to launching a huge number of taketown notices on
people that are *trying* to support 5e on the internet, like it's 1995
and bankruptcy is just around the corner again. Their few productive and
useful fans, they're blaming *them* for ... I'm /guessing/ poor sales.
Leaks from inside say they like to blame their /sales department/ for
that most of the time.
So many rpg message-boards have basically banned criticism of it.
Like people won't notice how drastically few clothes the emperor has on
if no one says anything.
The Oberoni, it abounds. It's a core functionality of the edition
after all. The rules aren't there, which you can totally fix by making
your own on the spot. Huzzah, Mike Mearls, huzzah. <sigh>
So 5th edition is THAT bad, eh?
I haven't played D&D in YEARS b/c our group broke up and the campaign went off
the rails when someone played a Master of (Too) Many Forms and never took
damage b/c he spent all his time as a Troll (or sub-type).
I bought the 5E books, PHB, MM, and DMG, on a recommendation of a
relative. The books are better laid out for the material than 1E and
2E books are. I read them. Walked through a sample scenario after
buying the starter set.
But that is the only nice thing I can say about 5E.
Well, you liked it more than I.


--
"If Barack Obama isn't careful, he will become the Neville Chamberlain
of the 21st century."
s***@ucsc.edu
2017-03-04 17:33:57 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Justisaur
I miss quite a number of people. MSB, Werebat (I found him on facebook,
but neither of us posts much there), Malachias Inviticus, Hong Ooi, Bradd
W. Szonye are the main ones I remember. The rest of the people I miss
still post, just very rarely. :/
Hey I miss you guys too!

Malachias Invictus

(aka Sean Laney)
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2017-03-04 22:42:58 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by s***@ucsc.edu
Post by Justisaur
I miss quite a number of people. MSB, Werebat (I found him on facebook,
but neither of us posts much there), Malachias Inviticus, Hong Ooi, Bradd
W. Szonye are the main ones I remember. The rest of the people I miss
still post, just very rarely. :/
Hey I miss you guys too!
Malachias Invictus
(aka Sean Laney)
Hey there. Wish Ron would drop by and say hi.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Keith J Davies
2017-03-23 20:58:56 UTC
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Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Hey there. Wish Ron would drop by and say hi.
Ron always drops by and says hi, you just don't know it's him.

For after all, We Are All Ron.

Keith
Justisaur
2017-03-08 23:51:22 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by s***@ucsc.edu
Post by Justisaur
I miss quite a number of people. MSB, Werebat (I found him on facebook,
but neither of us posts much there), Malachias Inviticus, Hong Ooi, Bradd
W. Szonye are the main ones I remember. The rest of the people I miss
still post, just very rarely. :/
I have to add tussock to that list now, haven't seen a post from my
favorite New Zealander for ages. I wonder if he works at Weta?
Post by s***@ucsc.edu
Hey I miss you guys too!
Malachias Invictus
(aka Sean Laney)
Hi Malachias!

I'm only 4 days late checking in, I haven't been checking here much
lately as no one's posting anything except Licorn stuff which I glance
at now and again and make a game of futilely trying to make some sense
of any of it.

I've mostly been playing online on Roll20 these days, I did a bit of 5e
and am still working on my own OSR (which is more like a mash of various
D&D with a bunch of really weird rules I wanted to try out, it probably
doesn't even really qualify as OSR.)

- Justisaur
Keith J Davies
2017-03-23 20:59:31 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by s***@ucsc.edu
Post by Justisaur
I miss quite a number of people. MSB, Werebat (I found him on facebook,
but neither of us posts much there), Malachias Inviticus, Hong Ooi, Bradd
W. Szonye are the main ones I remember. The rest of the people I miss
still post, just very rarely. :/
Hey I miss you guys too!
Malachias Invictus
(aka Sean Laney)
Mal!

I'm still working on Echelon, man. It aten't dead yet.

Keith
Ralph Glatt
2015-02-07 14:18:56 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by LeSombre
I remember beeing told off by MSB on my very forst post years ago. "I think negative things of your intelligence" he wrote. Fond memories.
I often wonder if he's still around of if he moved to something like Reddit or 4Chan...
Cheers,
LeSombre
At least she knows how to use a thesaurus! ;-)
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-03-23 21:50:36 UTC
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Raw Message
I have come to wonder if he's the Michael Brown who has published
dozens of one page Traveller scenarios on RPGNow (and elsewhere):

http://www.rpgnow.com/browse/pub/9030/Michael-Brown
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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