Discussion:
Critique of Magic in Roleplaying
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Ralph Glatt
2017-06-05 13:40:20 UTC
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I just stumbled across this video on Youtube and was wondering what everyone here thinks about it.


JimP.
2017-06-05 14:56:00 UTC
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On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 06:40:20 -0700 (PDT), Ralph Glatt
Post by Ralph Glatt
I just stumbled across this video on Youtube and was wondering what everyone here thinks about it.
http://youtu.be/mU2Elrz34gs
Painfully boring video. Don't like magic in d&d, modify or play a
different game.
--
Jim
Anonymous Jack
2017-06-05 19:30:38 UTC
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Post by JimP.
Post by Ralph Glatt
I just stumbled across this video on Youtube and was wondering what everyone here thinks about it.
http://youtu.be/mU2Elrz34gs
Painfully boring video. Don't like magic in d&d, modify or play a
different game.
Didn't watch the video, but it seems like removing magic from D&D would be fairly trivial. Less fun than stock, IMO, since magic adds lots of amusing quirks, but doable.
h***@gmail.com
2017-06-05 23:30:06 UTC
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Post by Anonymous Jack
Post by JimP.
Post by Ralph Glatt
I just stumbled across this video on Youtube and was wondering what everyone here thinks about it.
http://youtu.be/mU2Elrz34gs
Painfully boring video. Don't like magic in d&d, modify or play a
different game.
Didn't watch the video, but it seems like removing magic from D&D would be fairly trivial. Less fun than stock, IMO, since magic adds lots of amusing quirks, but doable.
There are various d20 games that have done it (or nearly so) but it requires significant changes to be playable.
No magic basically means no healing, there are a lot of enemies that need magic to defeat etc.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-06-05 23:35:09 UTC
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On Tuesday, June 6, 2017 at 5:30:39 AM UTC+10, Anonymous Jack
Post by Anonymous Jack
Post by JimP.
Post by Ralph Glatt
I just stumbled across this video on Youtube and was
wondering what everyone here thinks about it.
http://youtu.be/mU2Elrz34gs
Painfully boring video. Don't like magic in d&d, modify or
play a different game.
Didn't watch the video, but it seems like removing magic from
D&D would be fairly trivial. Less fun than stock, IMO, since
magic adds lots of amusing quirks, but doable.
There are various d20 games that have done it (or nearly so) but
it requires significant changes to be playable. No magic
basically means no healing, there are a lot of enemies that need
magic to defeat etc.
If you eliminate magic (correctly), you've eliminated anything that
requires magic to harm.

There are better game systems out there, though, for low or no magic
games, especially if you want something very historically based.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Anonymous Jack
2017-06-06 13:01:51 UTC
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Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Anonymous Jack
Didn't watch the video, but it seems like removing magic from
D&D would be fairly trivial. Less fun than stock, IMO, since
magic adds lots of amusing quirks, but doable.
There are various d20 games that have done it (or nearly so) but
it requires significant changes to be playable. No magic
basically means no healing, there are a lot of enemies that need
magic to defeat etc.
If you eliminate magic (correctly), you've eliminated anything that
requires magic to harm.
Or just remove the "needs magic to harm" requirement - change to something like "need silver/cold iron/macguffin to harm"

And "no magic" only means "no _magic_ healing" - wouldn't be hard to cobble up a quicker, non-magic system of healing. Further divorce the relationship between HP and physical damage. One of the house rules that I'd seen fairly commonly back in the 1E days was that "binding wounds" (and anyone could perform this) would heal d4 HP. Only doable once per combat, basically.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-06-06 15:52:04 UTC
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On Monday, June 5, 2017 at 7:35:11 PM UTC-4, Gutless Umbrella
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Anonymous Jack
Didn't watch the video, but it seems like removing magic
from D&D would be fairly trivial. Less fun than stock, IMO,
since magic adds lots of amusing quirks, but doable.
There are various d20 games that have done it (or nearly so)
but it requires significant changes to be playable. No magic
basically means no healing, there are a lot of enemies that
need magic to defeat etc.
If you eliminate magic (correctly), you've eliminated anything
that requires magic to harm.
Or just remove the "needs magic to harm" requirement - change to
something like "need silver/cold iron/macguffin to harm"
Magic by any other name still smells like roses. One can aim for a
magic system based on historical perceptions of magic (which, in
medieval Europe, tend to be either very subtle, and easily mistaken
for random chance, or quite specatular, but nobody has ever actualy
seen it work with their own eyes - and either way, will involve
smearing onself with blood and shit), but it's still magic.
And "no magic" only means "no _magic_ healing" - wouldn't be
hard to cobble up a quicker, non-magic system of healing.
Further divorce the relationship between HP and physical damage.
One of the house rules that I'd seen fairly commonly back in the
1E days was that "binding wounds" (and anyone could perform
this) would heal d4 HP. Only doable once per combat, basically.
Well, again, if you want realism, D20 is not the game system to
use, magic or not.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Ubiquitous
2017-06-06 23:27:38 UTC
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Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
On Tuesday, June 6, 2017 at 5:30:39 AM UTC+10, Anonymous Jack
Post by Anonymous Jack
Post by JimP.
Post by Ralph Glatt
I just stumbled across this video on Youtube and was
wondering what everyone here thinks about it.
http://youtu.be/mU2Elrz34gs
Painfully boring video. Don't like magic in d&d, modify or
play a different game.
Didn't watch the video, but it seems like removing magic from
D&D would be fairly trivial. Less fun than stock, IMO, since
magic adds lots of amusing quirks, but doable.
There are various d20 games that have done it (or nearly so) but
it requires significant changes to be playable. No magic
basically means no healing, there are a lot of enemies that need
magic to defeat etc.
If you eliminate magic (correctly), you've eliminated anything that
requires magic to harm.
There are better game systems out there, though, for low or no magic
games, especially if you want something very historically based.
Who wants to play Gygax's "Fantasy Wargaming" game?
--
Dems & the media want Trump to be more like Obama, but then he'd
have to audit liberals & wire tap reporters' phones.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-06-06 23:13:29 UTC
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Post by Ubiquitous
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Anonymous Jack
Post by JimP.
Post by Ralph Glatt
I just stumbled across this video on Youtube and was
wondering what everyone here thinks about it.
http://youtu.be/mU2Elrz34gs
Painfully boring video. Don't like magic in d&d, modify or
play a different game.
Didn't watch the video, but it seems like removing magic from
D&D would be fairly trivial. Less fun than stock, IMO, since
magic adds lots of amusing quirks, but doable.
There are various d20 games that have done it (or nearly so)
but it requires significant changes to be playable. No magic
basically means no healing, there are a lot of enemies that
need magic to defeat etc.
If you eliminate magic (correctly), you've eliminated anything
that requires magic to harm.
There are better game systems out there, though, for low or no
magic games, especially if you want something very historically
based.
Who wants to play Gygax's "Fantasy Wargaming" game?
Nobody. Ever. (As the sales indicate.)
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Ralph Glatt
2017-06-07 18:43:05 UTC
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Post by Ubiquitous
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Anonymous Jack
Post by JimP.
Post by Ralph Glatt
I just stumbled across this video on Youtube and was
wondering what everyone here thinks about it.
http://youtu.be/mU2Elrz34gs
Painfully boring video. Don't like magic in d&d, modify or
play a different game.
Didn't watch the video, but it seems like removing magic from
D&D would be fairly trivial. Less fun than stock, IMO, since
magic adds lots of amusing quirks, but doable.
There are various d20 games that have done it (or nearly so) but
it requires significant changes to be playable. No magic
basically means no healing, there are a lot of enemies that need
magic to defeat etc.
If you eliminate magic (correctly), you've eliminated anything that
requires magic to harm.
There are better game systems out there, though, for low or no magic
games, especially if you want something very historically based.
Who wants to play Gygax's "Fantasy Wargaming" game?
--
Dems & the media want Trump to be more like Obama, but then he'd
have to audit liberals & wire tap reporters' phones.
I thought someone else wrote "Fantasy Wargaming?" I actually liked the magic system it had, with a few house rules.
Ubiquitous
2017-06-09 23:48:22 UTC
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Post by Ralph Glatt
Post by Ubiquitous
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Anonymous Jack
Post by JimP.
Post by Ralph Glatt
I just stumbled across this video on Youtube and was
wondering what everyone here thinks about it.
http://youtu.be/mU2Elrz34gs
Painfully boring video. Don't like magic in d&d, modify or
play a different game.
Didn't watch the video, but it seems like removing magic from
D&D would be fairly trivial. Less fun than stock, IMO, since
magic adds lots of amusing quirks, but doable.
There are various d20 games that have done it (or nearly so) but
it requires significant changes to be playable. No magic
basically means no healing, there are a lot of enemies that need
magic to defeat etc.
If you eliminate magic (correctly), you've eliminated anything that
requires magic to harm.
There are better game systems out there, though, for low or no magic
games, especially if you want something very historically based.
Who wants to play Gygax's "Fantasy Wargaming" game?
I thought someone else wrote "Fantasy Wargaming?" I actually liked the
magic system it had, with a few house rules.
I'm pretty sure it was by Gygax; I recall him writing it as a "more
realistic" version of D&D.
--
Dems & the media want Trump to be more like Obama, but then he'd
have to audit liberals & wire tap reporters' phones.
Ralph Glatt
2017-06-12 13:35:46 UTC
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Post by Ubiquitous
Post by Ralph Glatt
Post by Ubiquitous
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Anonymous Jack
Post by JimP.
Post by Ralph Glatt
I just stumbled across this video on Youtube and was
wondering what everyone here thinks about it.
http://youtu.be/mU2Elrz34gs
Painfully boring video. Don't like magic in d&d, modify or
play a different game.
Didn't watch the video, but it seems like removing magic from
D&D would be fairly trivial. Less fun than stock, IMO, since
magic adds lots of amusing quirks, but doable.
There are various d20 games that have done it (or nearly so) but
it requires significant changes to be playable. No magic
basically means no healing, there are a lot of enemies that need
magic to defeat etc.
If you eliminate magic (correctly), you've eliminated anything that
requires magic to harm.
There are better game systems out there, though, for low or no magic
games, especially if you want something very historically based.
Who wants to play Gygax's "Fantasy Wargaming" game?
I thought someone else wrote "Fantasy Wargaming?" I actually liked the
magic system it had, with a few house rules.
I'm pretty sure it was by Gygax; I recall him writing it as a "more
realistic" version of D&D.
If I remember right, it was done by Bruce Galloway from England. Time for some Google-Fu.
Ralph Glatt
2017-06-12 13:38:07 UTC
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Post by Ralph Glatt
Post by Ubiquitous
Post by Ralph Glatt
Post by Ubiquitous
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Anonymous Jack
Post by JimP.
Post by Ralph Glatt
I just stumbled across this video on Youtube and was
wondering what everyone here thinks about it.
http://youtu.be/mU2Elrz34gs
Painfully boring video. Don't like magic in d&d, modify or
play a different game.
Didn't watch the video, but it seems like removing magic from
D&D would be fairly trivial. Less fun than stock, IMO, since
magic adds lots of amusing quirks, but doable.
There are various d20 games that have done it (or nearly so) but
it requires significant changes to be playable. No magic
basically means no healing, there are a lot of enemies that need
magic to defeat etc.
If you eliminate magic (correctly), you've eliminated anything that
requires magic to harm.
There are better game systems out there, though, for low or no magic
games, especially if you want something very historically based.
Who wants to play Gygax's "Fantasy Wargaming" game?
I thought someone else wrote "Fantasy Wargaming?" I actually liked the
magic system it had, with a few house rules.
I'm pretty sure it was by Gygax; I recall him writing it as a "more
realistic" version of D&D.
If I remember right, it was done by Bruce Galloway from England. Time for some Google-Fu.
Found this on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_Wargaming
Ubiquitous
2017-06-13 23:42:58 UTC
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Post by Ralph Glatt
Post by Ralph Glatt
Post by Ubiquitous
Post by Ralph Glatt
Post by Ubiquitous
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Anonymous Jack
Didn't watch the video, but it seems like removing magic from
D&D would be fairly trivial. Less fun than stock, IMO, since
magic adds lots of amusing quirks, but doable.
There are various d20 games that have done it (or nearly so) but
it requires significant changes to be playable. No magic
basically means no healing, there are a lot of enemies that need
magic to defeat etc.
If you eliminate magic (correctly), you've eliminated anything that
requires magic to harm.
There are better game systems out there, though, for low or no magic
games, especially if you want something very historically based.
Who wants to play Gygax's "Fantasy Wargaming" game?
I thought someone else wrote "Fantasy Wargaming?" I actually liked the
magic system it had, with a few house rules.
I'm pretty sure it was by Gygax; I recall him writing it as a "more
realistic" version of D&D.
If I remember right, it was done by Bruce Galloway from England. Time for some Google-Fu.
Found this on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_Wargaming
Huh. I thought Gygax wrote it all these years! Thanks.
--
Dems & the media want Trump to be more like Obama, but then he'd
have to audit liberals & wire tap reporters' phones.
Spalls Hurgenson
2017-06-06 14:10:51 UTC
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Post by JimP.
On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 06:40:20 -0700 (PDT), Ralph Glatt
Post by Ralph Glatt
I just stumbled across this video on Youtube and was wondering what everyone here thinks about it.
http://youtu.be/mU2Elrz34gs
Painfully boring video. Don't like magic in d&d, modify or play a
different game.
Good god, that video /is/ boring. I couldn't get more than a minute
into it before I dozed off. His voice makes Ben Stein's seem exuberant
in comparison. The "spooky sound effects" in the background didn't
help any; they were an annoying distraction.

Myself, I tend to DM low-magic campaigns so I somewhat agree with the
premise (at least, as much of the premise as I heard). One of my
issues with D&D - especially later variations - was how common magic
was; all the classes seemingly had magical abilities, wizards could
crank out potions and magic swords in their spare time, and both
players and NPCs took fantastic monsters like zombies or dragons in
stride. It stripped the game of its mystery and wonder.

Correcting this is possible in D&D but is difficult. It's not only how
much magic is built into the system but a lot of its mechanics require
players to have access to magical loot to survive. A world without
easy access to clerics or healing potions means that PCs might be
holed up for weeks after a single combat, and survivability rates
against higher-level monster plummets if the PCs don't have access to
magical armor or weapons. This can make for some interesting - and
arguably more realistic - games but it's a poor fit for D&D's
gameplay, with its mechanics scaled towards a small band of heroic
characters single-handedly taking out the Big Evil and all its
minions.

Myself, I strive to create low-magic worlds - I use the Conan novels
as a touch-point for how much magic to use - but even I have to fudge
a bit during actual gameplay (e.g., the heroes end up having access to
more magic than NPCs). Still, my players seem to appreciate the
effort, and when they are lucky enough to stumble across a rare magic
weapon or encounter some unnatural beast, I see the wonder and mystery
in their eyes that is too often missing when playing more stock
adventures.

Of course, I am not saying all D&D campaigns should go the low-magic
route; there's something to be said about pitting a band of
uber-powerful PCs with +5 plate, gauntlets of ogre strength and vorpal
swords against an evil a dragon-riding wizard and his monster horde.
But on the whole, I feel that the magic levels in D&D could be toned
down a bit, even if not to the extent to which I go.
JimP.
2017-06-06 17:52:01 UTC
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On Tue, 06 Jun 2017 10:10:51 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
Post by Spalls Hurgenson
Post by JimP.
On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 06:40:20 -0700 (PDT), Ralph Glatt
Post by Ralph Glatt
I just stumbled across this video on Youtube and was wondering what everyone here thinks about it.
http://youtu.be/mU2Elrz34gs
Painfully boring video. Don't like magic in d&d, modify or play a
different game.
Good god, that video /is/ boring. I couldn't get more than a minute
into it before I dozed off. His voice makes Ben Stein's seem exuberant
in comparison. The "spooky sound effects" in the background didn't
help any; they were an annoying distraction.
Egad, you and I agree on something.
Post by Spalls Hurgenson
Myself, I tend to DM low-magic campaigns so I somewhat agree with the
premise (at least, as much of the premise as I heard). One of my
issues with D&D - especially later variations - was how common magic
was; all the classes seemingly had magical abilities, wizards could
crank out potions and magic swords in their spare time, and both
players and NPCs took fantastic monsters like zombies or dragons in
stride. It stripped the game of its mystery and wonder.
Correcting this is possible in D&D but is difficult. It's not only how
much magic is built into the system but a lot of its mechanics require
players to have access to magical loot to survive. A world without
easy access to clerics or healing potions means that PCs might be
holed up for weeks after a single combat, and survivability rates
against higher-level monster plummets if the PCs don't have access to
magical armor or weapons. This can make for some interesting - and
arguably more realistic - games but it's a poor fit for D&D's
gameplay, with its mechanics scaled towards a small band of heroic
characters single-handedly taking out the Big Evil and all its
minions.
Which is my impression of Call of Chtuhlu. Lots of magical big bads,
no magic to deal with them.
--
Jim
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-06-06 18:33:08 UTC
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Post by JimP.
Which is my impression of Call of Chtuhlu. Lots of magical big
bads, no magic to deal with them.
That *is* the point of CoC, though. And all of the stories it's based
on.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
JimP.
2017-06-06 20:02:26 UTC
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On Tue, 06 Jun 2017 11:33:08 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by JimP.
Which is my impression of Call of Chtuhlu. Lots of magical big
bads, no magic to deal with them.
That *is* the point of CoC, though. And all of the stories it's based
on.
Aha ! Well, I never played it, just heard people at a nearby table at
game stores lamenting they had no magic items as their characters
dissolved, or dissolved into madness.
--
Jim
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-06-06 23:13:09 UTC
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Post by JimP.
On Tue, 06 Jun 2017 11:33:08 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by JimP.
Which is my impression of Call of Chtuhlu. Lots of magical big
bads, no magic to deal with them.
That *is* the point of CoC, though. And all of the stories it's
based on.
Aha ! Well, I never played it, just heard people at a nearby
table at game stores lamenting they had no magic items as their
characters dissolved, or dissolved into madness.
The game is deliberately written such that _all_ characters
eventually die (possibly by being eaten) or go insane (usually the
latter). This is true to the source material.

The closest we ever got to beating the system was a bunch of
gangster characters who were more evil than the vampire they ran
into[1], and so impressed him that he hired them. Vampires are
apparently *very* high on the food chain, and thus, we were able to
hide behind it most of the time. (You only check for sanity loss
the first time you meet something.)

[1]There were six people still alive in town when we arrived. One
ecaped, the vampire killed two, and we got the other three.

"I'm sorry about killing your friend."

"Oh, dat's OK. Da Postmaster woulda kilt him anyway, when we trew
him trew da window."
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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