Nymph's Kiss feat

[David Alex Lamb]

The Nymph's Kiss exalted feat gives +2 on charisma checks, +1 save against
spells and spell-like abilities, and +1 skill points per level starting at the
level where the feat is taken.
(a) Is there some special for it to be phrased as "+2 on charisma checks"
instead of the nearly-equivalent "+4 to charisma"? If CHA-based skills are
included in "charisma checks", I don't see the difference.
(b) If one takes NK at first level, should the +1 skill point be quadrupled?
It makes relatively little difference in the long term but every little
bit helps!

[Michael Scott Brown]

Post by David Alex Lamb
The Nymph's Kiss exalted feat gives +2 on charisma checks, +1 save against
spells and spell-like abilities, and +1 skill points per level starting at the
level where the feat is taken.
(a) Is there some special for it to be phrased as "+2 on charisma checks"
instead of the nearly-equivalent "+4 to charisma"? If CHA-based skills are
included in "charisma checks", I don't see the difference.

Psst. Charisma based magic (sorcerer spell DC, paladin lay on hands,
Turn Undead...).

Post by David Alex Lamb
(b) If one takes NK at first level, should the +1 skill point be quadrupled?
It makes relatively little difference in the long term but every little
bit helps!

Can you qualify for this at 1st level?

-Michael

[David Alex Lamb]

Post by David Alex Lamb

Post by David Alex Lamb
The Nymph's Kiss exalted feat gives +2 on charisma checks, +1 save

against

Post by David Alex Lamb
spells and spell-like abilities, and +1 skill points per level starting

at the

Post by David Alex Lamb
level where the feat is taken.
(a) Is there some special for it to be phrased as "+2 on charisma checks"
instead of the nearly-equivalent "+4 to charisma"? If CHA-based

skills are

Post by David Alex Lamb
included in "charisma checks", I don't see the difference.

Psst. Charisma based magic (sorcerer spell DC, paladin lay on hands,
Turn Undead...).

Duh! I was thinking about a monk build and completely forgetting about magic
use.

Post by David Alex Lamb

Post by David Alex Lamb
(b) If one takes NK at first level, should the +1 skill point be

quadrupled?

Post by David Alex Lamb
It makes relatively little difference in the long term but every

little

Post by David Alex Lamb
bit helps!

Can you qualify for this at 1st level?

Yes, there are no prequisites. I imagine a DM would want a good backstory as
to how the character became involved in a relationship with a fey, but that's
not in the rules.

[Michael Scott Brown]

Post by David Alex Lamb

Post by Michael Scott Brown

Post by David Alex Lamb
(b) If one takes NK at first level, should the +1 skill point be quadrupled?
It makes relatively little difference in the long term but

everylittle

Post by David Alex Lamb

Post by Michael Scott Brown

Post by David Alex Lamb
bit helps!

Can you qualify for this at 1st level?

Yes, there are no prequisites. I imagine a DM would want a good backstory as
to how the character became involved in a relationship with a fey, but that's
not in the rules.

Hmph. Well... it would be quite reasonable to quadruple all starting
skill point sources - but the legalese doesn't say to do that.

-Michael

[Andrew J Kennedy]

Post by Michael Scott Brown

Post by David Alex Lamb
included in "charisma checks", I don't see the difference.

Psst. Charisma based magic (sorcerer spell DC, paladin lay on hands,
Turn Undead...).

For Turning, I would say that the feat does not effect Times per day, but it
does effect the Turning Check.

[DM70]

Hmmm....

A Nymph with a foot fetish...

I think that will find a place in a campaign at some point.

Thanks!

DM

[Nockermensch]

Post by DM70
Hmmm....
A Nymph with a foot fetish...
I think that will find a place in a campaign at some point.
Thanks!
DM

Make two nymphs, and have them lesbians.

[Hong Ooi]

Post by Nockermensch

Post by DM70
Hmmm....
A Nymph with a foot fetish...
I think that will find a place in a campaign at some point.
Thanks!
DM

Make two nymphs, and have them lesbians.

They could send each other blind!

[Jasin Zujovic]

Post by Hong Ooi

Post by Nockermensch

Post by DM70
Hmmm....
A Nymph with a foot fetish...
I think that will find a place in a campaign at some point.
Thanks!

Make two nymphs, and have them lesbians.

They could send each other blind!

Keep doing that and you'll send yourself blind.

[Bradd W. Szonye]

Post by Jasin Zujovic

Post by Hong Ooi

Post by Nockermensch

Post by DM70
Hmmm....
A Nymph with a foot fetish...
I think that will find a place in a campaign at some point.
Thanks!

Make two nymphs, and have them lesbians.

They could send each other blind!

Keep doing that and you'll send yourself blind.

He's sending himself blind right now.
And I'm narrating. Eww.

[First Prophet of Kaos]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Jasin Zujovic]

Post by David Alex Lamb
The Nymph's Kiss exalted feat gives +2 on charisma checks, +1 save against
spells and spell-like abilities, and +1 skill points per level starting at the
level where the feat is taken.
(a) Is there some special for it to be phrased as "+2 on charisma checks"
instead of the nearly-equivalent "+4 to charisma"? If CHA-based skills are
included in "charisma checks", I don't see the difference.

Sorcerer and bard spells, laying on hands, turn undead attempts, smite...
would all benefit from +4 Cha, but not from +2 on Cha checks.

Post by David Alex Lamb
(b) If one takes NK at first level, should the +1 skill point be quadrupled?
It makes relatively little difference in the long term but every little
bit helps!

I think it should, if you allow Nymph's Kiss. But I don't think you
should allow Nymph's Kiss.

I mean, there are feats that give you +2 to two skills. NK gives you +2
to eight skills and half the racial benefits of a PHB race. Isn't it just
a tad too much?

[Christopher Adams]

Post by Jasin Zujovic
I mean, there are feats that give you +2 to two skills. NK gives you +2
to eight skills and half the racial benefits of a PHB race. Isn't it just
a tad too much?

I can almost hear Sean K. Reynolds screaming as I write this, since he's the
world's biggest proponent of the "never balance mechanics with roleplaying"
theory, but the balance aspect comes from the fact that Nymph's Kiss, as an
exalted feat, requires the character to adhere to an extremely stringent set of
moral principles, something even more virtuous than a paladin's code, at least
on the Good axis.

Since it's "adhere to the exalted code or lose it forever", I don't have that
much of a problem letting roleplaying counterbalance mechanics in this instance;
it's not "dwarves and gnomes will hate you for having this", but "if you're not
a paragon of Good you'll lose it". Even a hack-and-slash game can insist on
characters adhering to the exalted code - but they won't get that much
hack-and-slash done, methinks, unless we're talking Always Evil opponents.

--
Christopher Adams - SUTEKH Functions Officer 2004

She's a cock-tease. He's her obsessive stalker. Together . . . they fight crime.

- Sean O'Hara on "Star Wars Episode II: Attack Of The Clones"

[Jasin Zujovic]

Post by Christopher Adams

Post by Jasin Zujovic
I mean, there are feats that give you +2 to two skills. NK gives you +2
to eight skills and half the racial benefits of a PHB race. Isn't it just
a tad too much?

I can almost hear Sean K. Reynolds screaming as I write this, since he's the
world's biggest proponent of the "never balance mechanics with roleplaying"
theory, but the balance aspect comes from the fact that Nymph's Kiss, as an
exalted feat, requires the character to adhere to an extremely stringent set of
moral principles, something even more virtuous than a paladin's code, at least
on the Good axis.
Since it's "adhere to the exalted code or lose it forever", I don't have that
much of a problem letting roleplaying counterbalance mechanics in this instance;
it's not "dwarves and gnomes will hate you for having this", but "if you're not
a paragon of Good you'll lose it". Even a hack-and-slash game can insist on
characters adhering to the exalted code - but they won't get that much
hack-and-slash done, methinks, unless we're talking Always Evil opponents.

I still think that Nymph's Kiss is way overpowered. I'm not necessarily
against balancing mechanics with roleplaying, but Nymph's Kiss gives you
the benefits of four (albeit weak) feats plus the half the benefits of a
PC race. It's too powerful compareded to other exalted feats too.

[David Alex Lamb]

Post by Jasin Zujovic
I still think that Nymph's Kiss is way overpowered. I'm not necessarily
against balancing mechanics with roleplaying, but Nymph's Kiss gives you
the benefits of four (albeit weak) feats plus the half the benefits of a
PC race. It's too powerful compareded to other exalted feats too.

The balanced-with-roleplaying component, maintaining an intimate relationship
with a fey, is likely to place severe constraints on how long the character
can be "away adventuring"[1]. But even so I am reluctantly starting to
consider agreeing with you. +2 to two CHA skills of choice would reduce that
part of the problem; does it need to be cut back more than that?

[1] Unless the fey happens to be feytouched, which can be an adventuring
character.

[Jasin Zujovic]

Post by David Alex Lamb

Post by Jasin Zujovic
I still think that Nymph's Kiss is way overpowered. I'm not necessarily
against balancing mechanics with roleplaying, but Nymph's Kiss gives you
the benefits of four (albeit weak) feats plus the half the benefits of a
PC race. It's too powerful compareded to other exalted feats too.

The balanced-with-roleplaying component, maintaining an intimate relationship
with a fey, is likely to place severe constraints on how long the character
can be "away adventuring"[1]. But even so I am reluctantly starting to
consider agreeing with you. +2 to two CHA skills of choice would reduce that
part of the problem; does it need to be cut back more than that?

I'm not sure I understand correctly; are you suggesting that you change
the feat so that it grants only +2 to two Cha skills of choice?

If so... that'd be a bit weak. The +2/+2 skill feat aren't exactly the
pinnacle of feat power, and having complete freedom in the choice of
skills means little, considering you could probably find a feat that
gives bonuses to the very two skills you want, or convince your DM into
making one.

I think the fair (and appropriate) benefits for Nymph's Kiss might be
+2 or even +3 to all Cha skills, but only against creatures that might
regard you as a romantic/sexual partner. Some of your fey's lover's
sexiness "rubs off" on you, as it were.

Is your "Saintly monk" question about the same character, BTW? A monk
that a) is boinking a nymph; and b) cares enough about Cha skills to
spend a feat on them. Weird. Cool, but weird.

[David Alex Lamb]

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Is your "Saintly monk" question about the same character, BTW? A monk
that a) is boinking a nymph; and b) cares enough about Cha skills to
spend a feat on them. Weird. Cool, but weird.

I was considering it. The trouble is, the monk needs reasonable values in
Str, Wis, Dex, and Con, so Cha winds up being too low to interest a fey (or at
least a dryad, which in previous versions of the game was interested in
high-cha characters).

NK is an exalted feat, for reasons I don't understand, and Vow of Poverty
gives you one of those every 2 levels.

I'm now considering an impoverished saintly bard as well; he's make more sense
as a fey's companion.

[Jasin Zujovic]

Post by David Alex Lamb

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Is your "Saintly monk" question about the same character, BTW? A monk
that a) is boinking a nymph; and b) cares enough about Cha skills to
spend a feat on them. Weird. Cool, but weird.

I was considering it. The trouble is, the monk needs reasonable values in
Str, Wis, Dex, and Con, so Cha winds up being too low to interest a fey (or at
least a dryad, which in previous versions of the game was interested in
high-cha characters).

Supposing a balanced version of the feat itself, I'd definately make low
Cha a non-issue. First, I'd rule that the dryad might be attracted to the
monk because of other things beside Cha. Second, you might always take
the "he's not ugly, he's just shy" explanation for low Cha. (I always
do.)

Post by David Alex Lamb
NK is an exalted feat, for reasons I don't understand, and Vow of Poverty
gives you one of those every 2 levels.
I'm now considering an impoverished saintly bard as well; he's make more sense
as a fey's companion.

True. But the monk is all the better, in my mind, because it doesn't
"make sense". I mean, every other bard dallies with a nymph or fairy or
something like that. But a monk...?

Perhaps the dryad tries to seduce the monk on one of his meditations as a
prank (maybe she's a bit more chaotic than good, this one), but he is too
virtuous, and his resolve and humility slowly change her feelings into
true love, and only then does his heart warm to her also?

[Bradd W. Szonye]

Post by Jasin Zujovic
True. But the monk is all the better, in my mind, because it doesn't
"make sense". I mean, every other bard dallies with a nymph or fairy
or something like that. But a monk...?

Heh. Reminds me of a cleric in my last campaign.

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Perhaps the dryad tries to seduce the monk on one of his meditations
as a prank (maybe she's a bit more chaotic than good, this one), but
he is too virtuous, and his resolve and humility slowly change her
feelings into true love, and only then does his heart warm to her
also?

Good one!

[Jasin Zujovic]

Post by Bradd W. Szonye

Post by Jasin Zujovic
True. But the monk is all the better, in my mind, because it doesn't
"make sense". I mean, every other bard dallies with a nymph or fairy
or something like that. But a monk...?

Heh. Reminds me of a cleric in my last campaign.

... the LE Nazi chyk?

Post by Bradd W. Szonye

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Perhaps the dryad tries to seduce the monk on one of his meditations
as a prank (maybe she's a bit more chaotic than good, this one), but
he is too virtuous, and his resolve and humility slowly change her
feelings into true love, and only then does his heart warm to her
also?

Good one!

Thanks.

[Bradd W. Szonye]

Post by Jasin Zujovic

Post by Bradd W. Szonye

Post by Jasin Zujovic
True. But the monk is all the better, in my mind, because it doesn't
"make sense". I mean, every other bard dallies with a nymph or fairy
or something like that. But a monk...?

Heh. Reminds me of a cleric in my last campaign.

... the LE Nazi chyk?

No, she was faithful to Lady Sylaire. And I doubt she'd get romantically
involved with nymphs even if she were single. They're treacherous,
seductive agents of chaos, after all. Sister Anne Marie would be much
more likely to slay them on sight. With her usual battle cry: "May Ohurr
punish these creatures for their lies and treachery!" (i.e., verbal
component of Spiritual Weapon).

I was actually referring to Father Sargiento, the swingin' Lucian cleric
from my Primaterra campaign.

[Christopher Adams]

Second, you might always take the "he's not ugly, he's just shy"
explanation for low Cha. (I always do.)

I went at this from the other direction with my Planescape sorcerer/alienist. He
wasn't an attractive person - he was plain-looking and he had some extremely
eccentric personality traits. Later, as his powers developed, he underwent some
serious metamorphoses.

When he was killed by the fiery breath of a red dragon, the process of returning
him to life left the parts of his body which had been burned away looking like
the sort of flesh someone who'd only ever heard a human being described might
have imagined. When his familiar was killed, a few days later a mysterious
growth on the normal-looking side of his face gave rise to what was apparently
his familiar blended with his own face - still able to talk, mind you - which
then decayed over time, but not before somehow producing an egg which hatched a
replacement familiar. When this second familiar was left to watch over its
nearly dead master some time later, after a long fight, it offered to "change"
him - what it then did turned his innards into some kind of prehensile tentacle
which came out of the character's mouth and was, incidentally, made of eyeballs.

I don't pretend to understand the DM's motivations in all this - he's a very
narratively-oriented person - but rest assured it was better than I describe it
here.

Anyway, that character had a very high Charisma, and I decided that, even after
everything he went through, the reason for it was that he was just a person - or
a being, anyway - who, when he spoke, you just *had* to listen to. He wasn't
necessarily persuasive, but he was extremely magnetic, almost hypnotic in his
intensity.

--
Christopher Adams - SUTEKH Functions Officer 2004

She's a cock-tease. He's her obsessive stalker. Together . . . they fight crime.

- Sean O'Hara on "Star Wars Episode II: Attack Of The Clones"

[Jasin Zujovic]

Post by Christopher Adams

Second, you might always take the "he's not ugly, he's just shy"
explanation for low Cha. (I always do.)

I went at this from the other direction with my Planescape sorcerer/alienist. He
wasn't an attractive person - he was plain-looking and he had some extremely
eccentric personality traits. Later, as his powers developed, he underwent some
serious metamorphoses.
When he was killed by the fiery breath of a red dragon, the process of returning
him to life left the parts of his body which had been burned away looking like
the sort of flesh someone who'd only ever heard a human being described might
have imagined. When his familiar was killed, a few days later a mysterious
growth on the normal-looking side of his face gave rise to what was apparently
his familiar blended with his own face - still able to talk, mind you - which
then decayed over time, but not before somehow producing an egg which hatched a
replacement familiar. When this second familiar was left to watch over its
nearly dead master some time later, after a long fight, it offered to "change"
him - what it then did turned his innards into some kind of prehensile tentacle
which came out of the character's mouth and was, incidentally, made of eyeballs.
I don't pretend to understand the DM's motivations in all this - he's a very
narratively-oriented person - but rest assured it was better than I describe it
here.
Anyway, that character had a very high Charisma, and I decided that, even after
everything he went through, the reason for it was that he was just a person - or
a being, anyway - who, when he spoke, you just *had* to listen to. He wasn't
necessarily persuasive, but he was extremely magnetic, almost hypnotic in his
intensity.

Great story. Disgusting, but great.

And a good contrast to my comment. Shows how you describe your character
pretty much however you want, and still make sense of his abilities.

High Cha: the charming extravert or the fascinating strong silent type?
Or hideous and hypnotic, like your alienist? Low Dex: simply clumsy or
graceful and deliberate to the point of lethargy? (This one was sparked
by thinking about Deep Imaskari... you just *can't* be a tall marbe-
skinned wizard in a greatcoat and be just plain clumsy!) Low Con: thin
and scrawny or fat and out-of-shape? And so on.

[Christopher Adams]

Post by Jasin Zujovic

Post by Christopher Adams
I went at this from the other direction with my Planescape
sorcerer/alienist. He wasn't an attractive person - he was
plain-looking and he had some extremely eccentric personality traits.
Later, as his powers developed, he underwent some serious metamorphoses.
When he was killed by the fiery breath of a red dragon, the process of
returning him to life left the parts of his body which had been burned
away looking like the sort of flesh someone who'd only ever heard a
human being described might have imagined. When his familiar was
killed, a few days later a mysterious growth on the normal-looking side
of his face gave rise to what was apparently his familiar blended with
his own face - still able to talk, mind you - which then decayed over
time, but not before somehow producing an egg which hatched a
replacement familiar. When this second familiar was left to watch over
its nearly dead master some time later, after a long fight, it offered
to "change" him - what it then did turned his innards into some kind of
prehensile tentacle which came out of the character's mouth and was,
incidentally, made of eyeballs.
I don't pretend to understand the DM's motivations in all this - he's a
very narratively-oriented person - but rest assured it was better than
I describe it here.
Anyway, that character had a very high Charisma, and I decided that,
even after everything he went through, the reason for it was that he
was just a person - or a being, anyway - who, when he spoke, you just
*had* to listen to. He wasn't necessarily persuasive, but he was
extremely magnetic, almost hypnotic in his intensity.

Great story. Disgusting, but great.

Thanks. He was a hell of a lot of fun to play.

Post by Jasin Zujovic
And a good contrast to my comment. Shows how you describe your character
pretty much however you want, and still make sense of his abilities.
High Cha: the charming extravert or the fascinating strong silent type?
Or hideous and hypnotic, like your alienist? Low Dex: simply clumsy or
graceful and deliberate to the point of lethargy? (This one was sparked
by thinking about Deep Imaskari... you just *can't* be a tall marbe-
skinned wizard in a greatcoat and be just plain clumsy!) Low Con: thin
and scrawny or fat and out-of-shape? And so on.

High Wisdom: Transcendentally aware, extremely perceptive, a fount of common
sense?
Low Wisdom: Short-sighted, impulsive, spiritually blind?

High Intelligence: Learned, inquisitive, abstractly intellectual?
Low Intelligence: Uneducated, simple-minded, clouded thinker?

Low Charisma: Obnoxious, hideous, cold, snobbish?

Fun.

--
Christopher Adams - SUTEKH Functions Officer 2004

She's a cock-tease. He's her obsessive stalker. Together . . . they fight crime.

- Sean O'Hara on "Star Wars Episode II: Attack Of The Clones"

[Harnmaster]

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Perhaps the dryad tries to seduce the monk on one of his meditations as a
prank (maybe she's a bit more chaotic than good, this one), but he is too
virtuous, and his resolve and humility slowly change her feelings into
true love, and only then does his heart warm to her also?

"The LOVe, Boat
Soon will be MA-king another rUN
The LOVe Boat, Promises SOMething for every-One..."

[freakybaby]

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Sorcerer and bard spells, laying on hands, turn undead attempts,
smite... would all benefit from +4 Cha, but not from +2 on Cha checks.

Turn undead is a Cha based check though

[Michael Scott Brown]

Post by freakybaby

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Sorcerer and bard spells, laying on hands, turn undead attempts,
smite... would all benefit from +4 Cha, but not from +2 on Cha checks.

Turn undead is a Cha based check though

But not the number of times/day.

-Michael

[Loren Pechtel]

Post by David Alex Lamb
(a) Is there some special for it to be phrased as "+2 on charisma checks"
instead of the nearly-equivalent "+4 to charisma"? If CHA-based skills are
included in "charisma checks", I don't see the difference.

Sorcerers, or anyone else with Charisma-based spellcasting.