[d20 Modern] Shot in the head

[Sea Wasp]

A PC is making his way through a crowded marketplace in some hellhole
in the Middle East. A sinister NPC sneaks up behind him (easy to do
in the crowded area) and, simply, shoots him in the head.
How to handle this situation?
I figure we allow the PC a listen check (to hear the bugger coming up
behind him, breathing heavily, whathaveyou) and the NPC must make a
stealth check...but what if PC fails listen and NPC succeeds at
stealth?
Instant kill?
This is where d20 kind of breaks down (though I think all systems
break down in these kind of spots). Let's consider it as the PC is a
10th level character sporting 50-60 hp. I'd hate to imagine rolling
for damage as usual, and saying, "Uh, you get shot in the head and
lose [roll] 14 hit points."
Discuss.

This kind of thing depends also on the (written, spoken, or unspoken
but understood) "game contract" you live under. Are PC's "special"? Do
you routinely have PCs get killed through no true fault of their own
(i.e., they could die from random fire during a melee, having
accomplished none of their goals)?

The extent to which you have, or lack, "plot immunity" determines the
approach you want towards this. The standard By The Book answer for
this, I think, is that it's an Opposed Stealth roll -- the assassin is
trying to sneak up on the PC, who doesn't want to be snuck up on, so
it's an opposed roll. If NPC succeeds in stealth, he still needs to
make some kind of roll to succeed in actually shooting him where he
wants to -- unless you've got the guy in a headlock, which would be a
grappling attack, you *CAN* miss even from behind at a range of a few
feet. (many gun battles take place at ranges around 10 feet and have
both opponents MISS!). If he succeeds in his intended attack, I'd say
it's an automatic critical hit; if he critically succeeds, I'd
double-critical it.

HOWEVER... if you've got some degree of plot immunity, then you have
to adjust the effect for what you see as being the "proper" outcome
for the GAME. Maybe the PC senses it JUST too late to be able to fully
dodge, and so takes normal damage but not in the head. Maybe he takes
the shot but it hits at JUST the right angle so as to travel along the
outside of the skull under the skin (it's been known to happen, it's
just rare as hell), leaving him unconscious and bleeding from what
appears to be a shot through his head but actually not dead, etc.
Maybe a bystander sees the gun coming up and intervenes.

There's plenty of ways to prevent the Instant Kill if you want to.

[Sir Bob]

A PC is making his way through a crowded marketplace in some hellhole
in the Middle East. A sinister NPC sneaks up behind him (easy to do
in the crowded area) and, simply, shoots him in the head.
How to handle this situation?
I figure we allow the PC a listen check (to hear the bugger coming up
behind him, breathing heavily, whathaveyou) and the NPC must make a
stealth check...but what if PC fails listen and NPC succeeds at
stealth?
Instant kill?
This is where d20 kind of breaks down (though I think all systems
break down in these kind of spots). Let's consider it as the PC is a
10th level character sporting 50-60 hp. I'd hate to imagine rolling
for damage as usual, and saying, "Uh, you get shot in the head and
lose [roll] 14 hit points."
Discuss.

I think there's not really much problem if you "get" the concept behind hit
points. They don't just represent your ability to soak up injury - they
abstract *every* defensive factor from which a character might benefit, from
physical toughness to situational awareness to dumb luck. Essentially, if
the character still has hit points left after being "shot in the head", he
wasn't *really* "shot in the head"; perhaps he moved at the last moment,
perhaps the gunman's hand twitched, whatever.

- Sir Bob.

[hikaru]

Post by Sir Bob

A PC is making his way through a crowded marketplace in some hellhole
in the Middle East. A sinister NPC sneaks up behind him (easy to do
in the crowded area) and, simply, shoots him in the head.
How to handle this situation?
I figure we allow the PC a listen check (to hear the bugger coming up
behind him, breathing heavily, whathaveyou) and the NPC must make a
stealth check...but what if PC fails listen and NPC succeeds at
stealth?
Instant kill?
This is where d20 kind of breaks down (though I think all systems
break down in these kind of spots). Let's consider it as the PC is a
10th level character sporting 50-60 hp. I'd hate to imagine rolling
for damage as usual, and saying, "Uh, you get shot in the head and
lose [roll] 14 hit points."
Discuss.

I think there's not really much problem if you "get" the concept behind hit
points. They don't just represent your ability to soak up injury - they
abstract *every* defensive factor from which a character might benefit, from
physical toughness to situational awareness to dumb luck. Essentially, if
the character still has hit points left after being "shot in the head", he
wasn't *really* "shot in the head"; perhaps he moved at the last moment,
perhaps the gunman's hand twitched, whatever.

First, if you are in a crowded marketplace in an era with guns - the
'basket scene' from "Raiders of the Lost Ark" comes immedietly to mind-and a
guy raises a pistol, there will be a comotion most likely- a woman
screaming, a man saying "Look Out!', whatever. At the very least, the PC
might see someone in front of him with eyes the size of saucers as he sees a
man about to get shot.
Second,assuming he manages to pull the trigger without setting off a riot,
when he does, unless it is silenced there will still be trouble, and he is
likely to get caught. Unless he is an assassin who has no compunctions about
being killed for his cause , his sense of self preservation is likely to
stop him.
Third- a gun, subtly placed against his back by the assassin, is liable to
convince a PC to go into a secluded alleyway where the assassin can finish
the job. This gives a chance for the PC to work out something, and an
alleyway to do it in.
finally, the old standby- he has to *pull the hammer back* if it is an old
weapon.A listen check by the PC (possibly fudged by the GM to prevent an
instakill) is all you need.
I dont believe in instakills for PCs. I am a firm believer in the
'Stormtrooper Academy" school of thought for shootouts- the first volley of
an ambush will not kill any PC,period. It might *hurt*, but it will not
kill.The game is not about simulating real life, its about having fun. How
many great movies out there would have ended halfway through if the enemy
had hit their targets the first time they ambushed them?

My 2 coppers.

[Geoffrey Brent]

Post by hikaru
First, if you are in a crowded marketplace in an era with guns - the
'basket scene' from "Raiders of the Lost Ark" comes immedietly to mind-and a
guy raises a pistol, there will be a comotion most likely- a woman
screaming, a man saying "Look Out!', whatever. At the very least, the PC
might see someone in front of him with eyes the size of saucers as he sees a
man about to get shot.
Second,assuming he manages to pull the trigger without setting off a riot,
when he does, unless it is silenced there will still be trouble, and he is
likely to get caught. Unless he is an assassin who has no compunctions about
being killed for his cause , his sense of self preservation is likely to
stop him.

Not so. The Iraqi resistance has been making heavy use of "walk up,
shoot, run away" tactics - I assumed the original poster was referring
to a specific incident, in which a US soldier was indeed shot in the
back of the head/neck in a crowded marketplace. See, e.g.:

http://www.inq7.net/wnw/2003/jul/07/wnw_1-1.htm
http://www.sunspot.net/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.soldier09may09,0,2482602.story?coll=bal-iraq-headlines

People are surprisingly reluctant to tackle a man with a gun, and if
he's quick enough about it he may have blended into the crowd before
onlookers figure out what's happened.

[hikaru]

Post by Geoffrey Brent

Post by hikaru
First, if you are in a crowded marketplace in an era with guns - the
'basket scene' from "Raiders of the Lost Ark" comes immedietly to mind-and a
guy raises a pistol, there will be a comotion most likely- a woman
screaming, a man saying "Look Out!', whatever. At the very least, the PC
might see someone in front of him with eyes the size of saucers as he sees a
man about to get shot.
Second,assuming he manages to pull the trigger without setting off a riot,
when he does, unless it is silenced there will still be trouble, and he is
likely to get caught. Unless he is an assassin who has no compunctions about
being killed for his cause , his sense of self preservation is likely to
stop him.

Not so. The Iraqi resistance has been making heavy use of "walk up,
shoot, run away" tactics - I assumed the original poster was referring
to a specific incident, in which a US soldier was indeed shot in the
http://www.inq7.net/wnw/2003/jul/07/wnw_1-1.htm

http://www.sunspot.net/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.soldier09may09,0,2482602.story?coll=bal-iraq-headlines

Post by Geoffrey Brent
People are surprisingly reluctant to tackle a man with a gun, and if
he's quick enough about it he may have blended into the crowd before
onlookers figure out what's happened.

Jesus Christ. Worthless goat f@&^ing ragheads.

At any rate, this changes nothing , game wise. The fedayen are willing to
die- indeed, the word fedayeen is translated roughly as "Those who die for"-
as in "Fedayeen Saddam". And that soldier, sadly enough , wasnt playing a
game. again, this isnt a sim, its a game,played for leisure and pleasure.

[Geoffrey Brent]

Feel free to abuse the fedayeen all you like, but leave the racial
epithets out of it. I have several peace-loving friends who wear head
coverings for religious reasons, and are sick and tired of being abused
for it.

Post by hikaru
At any rate, this changes nothing , game wise. The fedayen are willing to
die- indeed, the word fedayeen is translated roughly as "Those who die for"-
as in "Fedayeen Saddam".

And A-10s are called Warthogs, but that doesn't make them flying pigs.
The fedayeeen are certainly willing to take _risks_, but given the
choice many are quite happy to take their shot and then run away to
fight another day.

Post by hikaru
And that soldier, sadly enough , wasnt playing a
game. again, this isnt a sim, its a game,played for leisure and pleasure.

Some people find that realistic simulation in one aspect of the game or
another adds to their enjoyment of the game. Just about everybody, in
fact, or games with 'swords' and 'guns' wouldn't be so popular. Where
people differ is in how much realism they want, and where. The fact that
somebody asked this question suggests that they _do_ want more realism
in this particular area.

[hikaru]

Post by Geoffrey Brent
Feel free to abuse the fedayeen all you like, but leave the racial
epithets out of it. I have several peace-loving friends who wear head
coverings for religious reasons, and are sick and tired of being abused
for it.

My apologies. Im a bit... intense... when it comes to this subject. I got
freinds & shipmates over there (Im in the US Naval Reserve- Construction
Battalions). One guy from my battalion got killed over there last month . I
no more refer to the whole of islamdom then my grandfather refferred to the
whole of the german people when he used phrases like "goosestepping krauts".
And yes, I know Hindus also wear head coverings.Mea culpa. I wasnt like this
until,oh, about 2 years ago next month.

Post by Geoffrey Brent

Post by hikaru
At any rate, this changes nothing , game wise. The fedayen are willing to
die- indeed, the word fedayeen is translated roughly as "Those who die for"-
as in "Fedayeen Saddam".

And A-10s are called Warthogs, but that doesn't make them flying pigs.
The fedayeeen are certainly willing to take _risks_, but given the
choice many are quite happy to take their shot and then run away to
fight another day.

True, but there have been plenty of suicide attacks by such troops,
nevermind the Al Qaeda style attacks we have experienced in the past.

Post by Geoffrey Brent

Post by hikaru
And that soldier, sadly enough , wasnt playing a
game. again, this isnt a sim, its a game,played for leisure and pleasure.

Some people find that realistic simulation in one aspect of the game or
another adds to their enjoyment of the game. Just about everybody, in
fact, or games with 'swords' and 'guns' wouldn't be so popular. Where
people differ is in how much realism they want, and where. The fact that
somebody asked this question suggests that they _do_ want more realism
in this particular area.

Perhaps. I thought he was trying to point out a place where the rules fall
apart. Hard to tell tone of voice on Usenet ; )

[Dirk Collins]

This kind of blind hatred is the problem, not the solution.
Obviously I can't condone or trivialise the S11 hijackings. But at the
same time, the USA has killed or otherwise screwed over a heck of a lot
more innocent civilians in recent history than died on 9/11.
Outfits like Al Quaeda need to go, no question, but there will be more
Al Quaedas unless the cultural and political issues on both sides that
led to the current situation are altered.
Kevin Lowe,

I agree with on Kevin with this. Geoffrey, if you didn't feel that
way before two years ago, you should go back to the way you felt
before, otherwise you are a victim of the propaganda.

With Regards,
Dirk

[Dirk Collins]

Wasnt Geoffery, it was me- name got lost in the replies. And It wasnt
propaganda that did this. It wasnt even the Towers falling that did it to
me. It was watching CNN, and having them show video,live, from Damascus,
Beirut, Jakarta, Baghdad, Cairo, the West Bank, etc, etc, all with the same
picture: civilians, out in the street, celebrating the murder of 3000 human
beings. Even as I watched the Towers fall, I was saying to myself, "This is
the act of a small cadre of madmen, They do not represent the mass of
Muslims out there". Well, I saw the reaction of the mass of Muslims out
there. I saw them dancing in the street, passing out candy to children and
firing guns in the air, even as firemen in NYC struggled to rescue their
brothers. And something died in me when I saw it. Only a culture that is
desperately, unrepentantly barbaric and sick would cheer on such acts.

No... you didn't see the reaction of the majority of the muslims
out there, what you saw was small groups of muslims in specific
areas that CNN had to travel to reach. Keep that fact in your head.

My suggestion is to travel to the locales where these muslims are,
then simply live, and work side-by-side with the locals, for a
while. Then get back to me on whether or not they are justified in
their behavior(s).

With Regards,
Dirk

[Malachias Invictus]

Post by Dirk Collins

Wasnt Geoffery, it was me- name got lost in the replies. And It wasnt
propaganda that did this. It wasnt even the Towers falling that did it to
me. It was watching CNN, and having them show video,live, from Damascus,
Beirut, Jakarta, Baghdad, Cairo, the West Bank, etc, etc, all with the same
picture: civilians, out in the street, celebrating the murder of 3000 human
beings. Even as I watched the Towers fall, I was saying to myself, "This is
the act of a small cadre of madmen, They do not represent the mass of
Muslims out there". Well, I saw the reaction of the mass of Muslims out
there. I saw them dancing in the street, passing out candy to children and
firing guns in the air, even as firemen in NYC struggled to rescue their
brothers. And something died in me when I saw it. Only a culture that is
desperately, unrepentantly barbaric and sick would cheer on such acts.

No... you didn't see the reaction of the majority of the muslims
out there, what you saw was small groups of muslims in specific
areas that CNN had to travel to reach.

Indeed. *Someone* put out a bit of research journalism about this; I wish I
could find a link to it. They really had to bust ass to find celebrants,
and some of the footage used was shown to be recycled old footage of folks
celebrating something else. Be wary of attempts to manipulate your
emotions.

Post by Dirk Collins
Keep that fact in your head.
My suggestion is to travel to the locales where these muslims are,
then simply live, and work side-by-side with the locals, for a
while. Then get back to me on whether or not they are justified in
their behavior(s).

I know a few, and all were pretty freaked out, and very scared for their
safety and that of their families both here and abroad. You also need to
remember that there are many different flavors of Islam.

[Douglas Bailey]

Post by Malachias Invictus

Post by Dirk Collins
No... you didn't see the reaction of the majority of the muslims
out there, what you saw was small groups of muslims in specific
areas that CNN had to travel to reach.

Indeed. *Someone* put out a bit of research journalism about this; I wish I
could find a link to it. They really had to bust ass to find celebrants,
and some of the footage used was shown to be recycled old footage of folks
celebrating something else.

Reuters claims that no footage was recycled:

<http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/20/reuters.statement/index.html>

And Snopes.com also says there was no "recycling" (including mention of
the Reuters claim, above):

<http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm>

I haven't seen any more recent information on the subject (which
doesn't mean there isn't any).

doug

[Geoffrey Brent]

Post by Malachias Invictus
Indeed. *Someone* put out a bit of research journalism about this; I wish I
could find a link to it. They really had to bust ass to find celebrants,
and some of the footage used was shown to be recycled old footage of folks
celebrating something else.

*nod* That matches my recollection of things: there were allegations of
recycling, but these were never substantiated.

OTOH, what I *did* see on Fox, with my own eyes, was footage of maybe
two dozen people massaged to look like much more than it was. Different
camera angles, giving the impression of more than one site, but on
closer inspection the same people, and the whole looped over and over to
string out about 30 seconds of footage into several minutes.

[Douglas Bailey]

Post by Geoffrey Brent
*nod* That matches my recollection of things: there were allegations of
recycling, but these were never substantiated.
OTOH, what I *did* see on Fox, with my own eyes, was footage of maybe
two dozen people massaged to look like much more than it was.

Very possible (especially 'cos it's Faux News, after all). As the
Snopes site hopefully makes clear, there's some middle ground between
the "no-one was celebrating" 'net rumour and the "everyone was
celebrating" impression given by some of the news networks.

doug

[Harry]

Post by Geoffrey Brent
Some people find that realistic simulation in one aspect of the game or
another adds to their enjoyment of the game. Just about everybody, in
fact, or games with 'swords' and 'guns' wouldn't be so popular. Where
people differ is in how much realism they want, and where. The fact that
somebody asked this question suggests that they _do_ want more realism
in this particular area.

And what exactly is so unrealistic about ranged sneak attack from a mid
level rogue on a low-level soldier?

[Geoffrey Brent]

Post by Harry

Post by Geoffrey Brent
Some people find that realistic simulation in one aspect of the game or
another adds to their enjoyment of the game. Just about everybody, in
fact, or games with 'swords' and 'guns' wouldn't be so popular. Where
people differ is in how much realism they want, and where. The fact that
somebody asked this question suggests that they _do_ want more realism
in this particular area.

And what exactly is so unrealistic about ranged sneak attack from a mid
level rogue on a low-level soldier?

That particular combination gives very realistic results, but the
original question featured a level 10 victim and didn't mention
anything about rogue levels for the attacker. You don't have to be
a new recruit to die when somebody shoots you in the head, and
they don't have to be a specialist assassin to pull that off.

Hence, if you want realism, you want a system that doesn't rely on
the attacker having rogue levels and the victim being "low-level".
(Something the coup de grace rules would appear to handle).

[Michael Scott Brown]

The difference between this and something like default-rules GURPS is
that in GURPS, even the best character *can* get unlucky and die from
the first shot of the game, while a high-level D&D/D20 character can't
die until his luck 'runs out'.

<raises hand> Death by massive damage.

-Michael

[Justisaur]

Post by Michael Scott Brown

The difference between this and something like default-rules GURPS is
that in GURPS, even the best character *can* get unlucky and die from
the first shot of the game, while a high-level D&D/D20 character can't
die until his luck 'runs out'.

<raises hand> Death by massive damage.

If you are talking D&D there's also those spells that cause instant
death.

[Geoffrey Brent]

Post by Michael Scott Brown

The difference between this and something like default-rules GURPS is
that in GURPS, even the best character *can* get unlucky and die from
the first shot of the game, while a high-level D&D/D20 character can't
die until his luck 'runs out'.

<raises hand> Death by massive damage.

Right you are. I tend not to use that one (and so forgot to qualify),
mostly because it *does* conflict with D&D's general philosophy on what
HP are supposed to be.

[Michael Scott Brown]

Post by Geoffrey Brent

Post by Michael Scott Brown

the first shot of the game, while a high-level D&D/D20 character can't
die until his luck 'runs out'.

<raises hand> Death by massive damage.

Right you are. I tend not to use that one (and so forgot to qualify),
mostly because it *does* conflict with D&D's general philosophy on what
HP are supposed to be.

Same here.

-Michael

[Robert Scott Clark]

On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:10:47 +1000, Geoffrey Brent

Post by Geoffrey Brent

Post by Michael Scott Brown

The difference between this and something like default-rules GURPS
is that in GURPS, even the best character *can* get unlucky and die
from the first shot of the game, while a high-level D&D/D20
character can't die until his luck 'runs out'.

<raises hand> Death by massive damage.

Right you are. I tend not to use that one (and so forgot to qualify),
mostly because it *does* conflict with D&D's general philosophy on
what HP are supposed to be.

I don't either - in D&D. Were I running d20 Modern I'd use it's
version of massive damage because it helps get round the issue of
10-th level characters ignoring assault rifles,

But that's the thing, if HP are supposed to represent luck and basically
not being shot (or being grazed at best), then it's no more
inappropriate that a high level character would ignore assault rifles
than if they ignore small pistols or even a thrown rock.

but is less likely to
outright kill a character than D&D's.

[Rupert Boleyn]

On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 02:54:15 GMT, Robert Scott Clark

Post by Robert Scott Clark
But that's the thing, if HP are supposed to represent luck and basically
not being shot (or being grazed at best), then it's no more
inappropriate that a high level character would ignore assault rifles
than if they ignore small pistols or even a thrown rock.

Depends what you're after, and how extreme you want the toughness of
high-level characters to be.

[David Johnston]

Post by Harry

Post by Geoffrey Brent
Some people find that realistic simulation in one aspect of the game or
another adds to their enjoyment of the game. Just about everybody, in
fact, or games with 'swords' and 'guns' wouldn't be so popular. Where
people differ is in how much realism they want, and where. The fact that
somebody asked this question suggests that they _do_ want more realism
in this particular area.

And what exactly is so unrealistic about ranged sneak attack from a mid
level rogue on a low-level soldier?

If the soldier is low level then he won't have many hit points or a
good saving throw.

[James Quick]

Post by Geoffrey Brent
And A-10s are called Warthogs, but that doesn't make them flying pigs.

They are however, about as close to a flying pig as an airplane can get.
They are slow and awkward, not to mention ugly. That said, they are good at
what they do.

The A-10 has awkward looks, but it is by no means an awkward aircraft.
It is quite capable of deft movement and is typically more
maneuverable than other aircraft travelling at the same (admittedly
slow) speeds.

[Michael Scott Brown]

"James Quick" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:JamesQuick1967-

Post by James Quick

They are however, about as close to a flying pig as an airplane can get.
They are slow and awkward, not to mention ugly. That said, they are good at
what they do.

The A-10 has awkward looks, but it is by no means an awkward aircraft.
It is quite capable of deft movement and is typically more
maneuverable than other aircraft travelling at the same (admittedly
slow) speeds.

Damnned skippy. Do not post ignorant comments about the most effective
tank-killing aircraft ever invented, kids!

-Michael

[Chip Bell]

Post by Michael Scott Brown
Damnned skippy. Do not post ignorant comments about the most effective
tank-killing aircraft ever invented, kids!

Heck, it's about the the most effective tank-killing ANYTHING out there.

[Michael Scott Brown]

Post by Chip Bell

Post by Michael Scott Brown
Damnned skippy. Do not post ignorant comments about the most effective
tank-killing aircraft ever invented, kids!

Heck, it's about the the most effective tank-killing ANYTHING out there.

Depleted uranium discarding-sabot tank shells fired by American Tanks
do a fair job of it, too ...

-Michael

[Michael Scott Brown]

What would the D20 Modern stats for the A10 be?

Once upon a time, it was believed that deities should not have
statistics, as that would tempt people into thinking they could be
defeated. :)

They're uglier than all-get out - unless you're an American
Infantryman - but whatever they decide to kill *dies*. For those of you
that are not aware, the ENTIRE PLANE IS A GUN - it's essentially an
airframe wrapped around a ~10 meter long 30mm gatling cannon. They're the
airplane equivalent of the space cruiser Yamamoto (well, the Airborne Laser
probably will dethrone it for that status, but for now..). The thing
fires at a simply insane rate of fire in bursts that number (IIRC) from 50
to 200. The shells are depleted uranium, and the barrage tears through
tank armor like an avenging god.

-Michael

[Chip Bell]

that number (IIRC) from 50 to 200. The shells are depleted uranium,
and the barrage tears through tank armor like an avenging god.

... and through the tank components, and through the tank crew, and through
some more components, and through some more armor, and through a good hunk
of dirt....

[DM70]

Post by Michael Scott Brown
news:JamesQuick1967-

Post by James Quick

They are however, about as close to a flying pig as an airplane can get.
They are slow and awkward, not to mention ugly. That said, they are

good at

Post by James Quick

what they do.

The A-10 has awkward looks, but it is by no means an awkward aircraft.
It is quite capable of deft movement and is typically more
maneuverable than other aircraft travelling at the same (admittedly
slow) speeds.

Damnned skippy. Do not post ignorant comments about the most effective
tank-killing aircraft ever invented, kids!

Not an ignorant comment. I said that "they are good at what they do."

DM

[Erek Black]

Post by Sir Bob

A PC is making his way through a crowded marketplace in some hellhole
in the Middle East. A sinister NPC sneaks up behind him (easy to do
in the crowded area) and, simply, shoots him in the head.
How to handle this situation?
I figure we allow the PC a listen check (to hear the bugger coming up
behind him, breathing heavily, whathaveyou) and the NPC must make a
stealth check...but what if PC fails listen and NPC succeeds at
stealth?
Instant kill?
This is where d20 kind of breaks down (though I think all systems
break down in these kind of spots). Let's consider it as the PC is a
10th level character sporting 50-60 hp. I'd hate to imagine rolling
for damage as usual, and saying, "Uh, you get shot in the head and
lose [roll] 14 hit points."
Discuss.

I think there's not really much problem if you "get" the concept behind hit
points. They don't just represent your ability to soak up injury - they
abstract *every* defensive factor from which a character might benefit, from
physical toughness to situational awareness to dumb luck. Essentially, if
the character still has hit points left after being "shot in the head", he
wasn't *really* "shot in the head"; perhaps he moved at the last moment,
perhaps the gunman's hand twitched, whatever.
- Sir Bob.

Perhaps. But is this not a coup de grace with a twist?

[Jessica Knoch]

Post by Erek Black

A PC is making his way through a crowded marketplace in some hellhole
in the Middle East. A sinister NPC sneaks up behind him (easy to do
in the crowded area) and, simply, shoots him in the head.
How to handle this situation?

Perhaps. But is this not a coup de grace with a twist?

No. You can't coup de grace without the person on the receiving end being
helpless. Held, sleeping, and some other things. It's not so simple to
get an automatic hit. "Simply shoots him in the head" -- Bah.

[Jessica Knoch]

Post by Jessica Knoch
You can't coup de grace without the person on the receiving end
being helpless. Held, sleeping, and some other things. It's not so
simple to get an automatic hit. "Simply shoots him in the head" --
Bah.

Well now it would all depend on if the NPC in question had the
"Assassin" type feat, study opponent for 3 rounds, make an attack roll
(target must count as "surprised" as per sneak attack), target makes
Fortitude save vs attackers Assassin effect DC. If target fails he
dies, if he lives he takes damage as per attack plus sneak attack
damage.
Ken

Oh, well, in *that* case...

[Hermann Hesse]

Post by Jessica Knoch
No. You can't coup de grace without the person on the receiving end being
helpless. Held, sleeping, and some other things. It's not so simple to
get an automatic hit. "Simply shoots him in the head" -- Bah.

Modern Core Rulebook, page 141:

"Even if you have a lot of hit points, a gunshot to the head is a gunshot to
the head. When a character can't avoid damage or deflect blows somehow -
when he's really helpless - he's in trouble (see Helpless Defenders, page
146).

Page 146:

"A helpless foe - one who is bound, sleeping, unconscious *or otherwise at
your mercy* - is an easy target. You can sometimes approach a target who is
unware of your presence, get adjacent to him, and treat him as helpless."

// Hermann

[Jessica Knoch]

Post by Hermann Hesse
"A helpless foe - one who is bound, sleeping, unconscious *or
otherwise at your mercy* - is an easy target. You can sometimes
approach a target who is unware of your presence, get adjacent to
him, and treat him as helpless."
// Hermann

That's an interesting last sentence. When is "sometimes?" What
are the defining circumstances for being able to do this? Is
there any help for that in the rules, or is it up to the GM?

--
Jess K.

[Hermann Hesse]

Post by Jessica Knoch
That's an interesting last sentence. When is "sometimes?" What
are the defining circumstances for being able to do this? Is
there any help for that in the rules, or is it up to the GM?

Page 146 continued:

"If the target is in combat or some tense situation, and therefore in a
astate of acute awareness and readiness, or if the target can use his
Dexterity bonus to Defense, then that target can't be considered unaware.
Further, any reasonable precaution taken by a target, including stationing
bodyguards, placing his back to a wall, or being able to make Spot checks,
also precludes catching the target unaware and helpless."

// Hermann

[Jessica Knoch]

Post by Hermann Hesse
"If the target is in combat or some tense situation, and
therefore in a astate of acute awareness and readiness, or if the
target can use his Dexterity bonus to Defense, then that target
can't be considered unaware. Further, any reasonable precaution
taken by a target, including stationing bodyguards, placing his
back to a wall, or being able to make Spot checks, also precludes
catching the target unaware and helpless."

The "being able to make Spot checks" clause is kind of the kicker,
here. If it means that any time a character may make a Spot check,
that character cannot be caught unaware, then I think that clinches
it for our man-in-the-crowd scenario. He is able to make Spot
checks, after all.

--
Jess K., unless they meant "make a check" as in "succeed." Hm.

[Hermann Hesse]

Post by Jessica Knoch
The "being able to make Spot checks" clause is kind of the kicker,
here. If it means that any time a character may make a Spot check,
that character cannot be caught unaware, then I think that clinches
it for our man-in-the-crowd scenario. He is able to make Spot
checks, after all.

You're absolutely right, but that doesn't make any sense. After all, when is
a character _not_ able to make a spot check? It doesn't rhyme very well with
"approach a target who is unware of your presence, get adjacent to him, and
treat him as helpless", nor does it make sense to point out that "a bullet
to the head is still a bullet to the head".

I agree that the wording definately suggests that the ability the make a
spot check is sufficient, rather than make a successful spot check, but why?

Since they go through all the trouble of pointing out that you _can_ sneak
up on an otherwise not helpless character (not bound, etc) and treat them as
helpless (unlike core d20), why would they undo it by demanding that they're
not even able to make a spot check in the first place? The only way any
victim would meet those demands would be by being... well... truly helpless
characters, in the core d20 sense.

// Hermann

[Certic]

A PC is making his way through a crowded marketplace in some hellhole
in the Middle East. A sinister NPC sneaks up behind him (easy to do
in the crowded area) and, simply, shoots him in the head.
How to handle this situation?

--------
Say to the player, "You're dead."

--
You are Not entering Chapeltown.
We walk on two legs, the one abstract
the other surreal.
'All you have to do is tell them they are being
attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger."
-Reichsmarschall Hermann Goering on war
--

[Scott Schimmel]

A PC is making his way through a crowded marketplace in some hellhole
in the Middle East. A sinister NPC sneaks up behind him (easy to do
in the crowded area) and, simply, shoots him in the head.
How to handle this situation?
I figure we allow the PC a listen check (to hear the bugger coming up
behind him, breathing heavily, whathaveyou) and the NPC must make a
stealth check...but what if PC fails listen and NPC succeeds at
stealth?

Good so far. However, beforehand, the NPC needs to make a Sleight of
Hand check against some arbitrary DC in order to conceal the gun from
the crowd; otherwise, they'll react, which would result in a
circumstance bonus to the PC's Listen check. (Possibly a really big
one, too. Someone shrieking and cringing away is noticed; someone
screaming, "He has a gun!" is more so.)

If he does conceal it, he probably needs another Sleight of Hand check
to draw it without revealing it and risking the same thing. (Smaller
circumstance bonuses in this case, though, because the PC has less
time to react to the shouts and screams and such.)

This is assuming that the greater part of the NPC crowd is, in fact,
ordinary folks, not members of the Secret Anti-PC Organization.

Instant kill?

No, unless the shot does enough damage to instantly kill. You don't
sidestep the hit point system.

This is where d20 kind of breaks down (though I think all systems
break down in these kind of spots). Let's consider it as the PC is a
10th level character sporting 50-60 hp. I'd hate to imagine rolling
for damage as usual, and saying, "Uh, you get shot in the head and
lose [roll] 14 hit points."

If the shot does 14 points to a PC who has 60, that's about 1/5 of his
life (because he's dead at -10, not at 0, so he has 70 points of
'life', not 60). You don't describe it as simply "you get shot in the
head." Instead, you describe it as "You feel a sudden white-hot pain
shoot through your head as a bullet glances off your skull" or perhaps
"You get shot in the shoulder from behind." (Maybe the guy's hand
twitched. Aiming for the head doesn't guarantee a head shot.)

If the same shot hit a PC who had 6 hp, that's almost all of his life.
In this case, it's direct-hit-to-the-head, and the PC is lying on the
floor unconscious and about 10 seconds from death if he doesn't
stabilize.

If you allow instant kills regardless of hp, expect your PCs to start
specifying that they aim for the head every time. You'll have only
yourself to blame.

Hit locations in d20 are a function of the damage, not the other way
around -- if you do more damage, then you've inflicted a more lethal
wound, which generally means you've hit a more vital location.

If you want to introduce a called-shot mechanism, use Power Attack for
melee, and introduce a new feat that works like Power Attack but with
missile weapons for range. The lower chance to hit reflects that
you're only trying to take advantage of openings in the opponent's
defense in the specific target area, rather than taking just any
opening, and the increased damage is because if you did hit, you got
closer to that vital area than you otherwise would have.

Special effects. ^_^

[Talen]

It has been brought to my attention that Scott Schimmel

Post by Scott Schimmel
(Maybe the guy's hand
twitched. Aiming for the head doesn't guarantee a head shot.)

Alternately, the character - as a high hit point character -
intuitively dodged without even concsiously recognising the threat.

[Scott Schimmel]

On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:19:28 +1000, Talen

Post by Talen
It has been brought to my attention that Scott Schimmel

Post by Scott Schimmel
(Maybe the guy's hand
twitched. Aiming for the head doesn't guarantee a head shot.)

Alternately, the character - as a high hit point character -
intuitively dodged without even concsiously recognising the threat.

Yep. Or someone in the crowd bumped the shooter a bit, throwing off
his aim. Or the bullet was dead-on, but happened to hit the metal
plate the character had in his skull following some previous surgery.
:p Or the silver chain the character always wears deflected it at the
back of his neck, leaving only a nasty bruise and a jewelry-repair
bill. Or he happened to bend to tie his shoe, and it just grazed his
scalp -- lots of blood, no serious damage. Or any number of other
things that is not a perfect direct, life-threatening shot to the
head. Hit points can represent any combination of skill, luck, and
just plain weirdness that manages to mitigate a wound that you care to
allow them to.

[Gary Johnson]

In rec.games.frp.dnd Scott Schimmel <***@voicenet.com> wrote:

: If you want to introduce a called-shot mechanism, use Power Attack for
: melee, and introduce a new feat that works like Power Attack but with
: missile weapons for range.

I have such a feat in my house rules called Accurate Attack, with
essentially the same special effect for the extra damage (aiming for
hard-to-hit but high-damage areas of the target, so you're less likely
to hit but more likely to do lots of damage if you do).

* * * * * * *

Accurate Attack [General]

Description: You can make exceptionally accurate attacks with ranged and
light melee weapons.

Prerequisite: Dex 13+, plus Weapon Finesse if you wish to use this feat
with light melee weapons.

Benefit: As described for Power Attack on page 98 of the Player's
Handbook, except that the character may use either a light melee weapon
(if they have the Weapon Finesse feat) or a ranged weapon. If using a
ranged weapon, the target must be within 30 feet: it is not possible to
strike with deadly accuracy from beyond that range.

* * * * * * *

Seems to work alright so far.

Cheers,

Gary Johnson

[Dirk Collins]

Post by Gary Johnson
Benefit: As described for Power Attack on page 98 of the Player's
Handbook, except that the character may use either a light melee weapon
(if they have the Weapon Finesse feat) or a ranged weapon. If using a
ranged weapon, the target must be within 30 feet: it is not possible to
strike with deadly accuracy from beyond that range.

Really?... tell that to the ghosts of the French Knights at
Agincourt. The English Longbowmen were at ranges which exceeded
that considerably. But wait! This is D&D. My Bad...

With Regards,
Dirk

[Geoffrey Brent]

Post by Gary Johnson
Benefit: As described for Power Attack on page 98 of the Player's
Handbook, except that the character may use either a light melee weapon
(if they have the Weapon Finesse feat) or a ranged weapon. If using a
ranged weapon, the target must be within 30 feet: it is not possible to
strike with deadly accuracy from beyond that range.

Really?... tell that to the ghosts of the French Knights at Agincourt.
The English Longbowmen were at ranges which exceeded that considerably.

And weren't, AFAIK, aiming at individual targets at the time. When
firing into a massed body of troops, you don't *need* accuracy of the
degree required to achieve Sneak Attack and other 30-ft damage bonuses.
You don't even need to be able to reliably hit a man-sized target, only
to hit a _group_ of men.

[Gary Johnson]

In rec.games.frp.dnd Dirk Collins <***@earthlink.net> wrote:
: Gary Johnson wrote:

:> Benefit: As described for Power Attack on page 98 of the Player's
:> Handbook, except that the character may use either a light melee weapon
:> (if they have the Weapon Finesse feat) or a ranged weapon. If using a
:> ranged weapon, the target must be within 30 feet: it is not possible to
:> strike with deadly accuracy from beyond that range.

: Really?... tell that to the ghosts of the French Knights at
: Agincourt. The English Longbowmen were at ranges which exceeded
: that considerably. But wait! This is D&D. My Bad...

So? Massed battlefield fire isn't what this feat is supposed to represent.
Stop being so focussed on flavour text (borrowed from the description for
sneak attack, by the way) above actual mechanical effect, and you'll be
fine: after all, it's just the stock D&D rules flavour text for why sneak
attack and other precision-based bonus damage attacks only work within 30
feet.

Cheers,

Gary Johnson

[Dirk Collins]

Post by Gary Johnson
after all, it's just the stock D&D rules flavour text for why sneak
attack and other precision-based bonus damage attacks only work within 30
feet.

Right. That is what I said, only worded it differently in an
earlier post.

Re,
Dirk

[Marc]

Post by Dirk Collins

Post by Gary Johnson
Benefit: As described for Power Attack on page 98 of the Player's
Handbook, except that the character may use either a light melee weapon
(if they have the Weapon Finesse feat) or a ranged weapon. If using a
ranged weapon, the target must be within 30 feet: it is not possible to
strike with deadly accuracy from beyond that range.

Really?... tell that to the ghosts of the French Knights at
Agincourt. The English Longbowmen were at ranges which exceeded
that considerably. But wait! This is D&D. My Bad...

The English Longbowmen shot wihtout deadly accuracy. They shot with mass
vollies into a crowd.

[Dirk Collins]

Post by Marc
The English Longbowmen shot wihtout deadly accuracy. They shot with mass
vollies into a crowd.

No, they were trained to aim at individual targets. They only shot
volleys into the French Crowd at Agincourt because, they had
trouble distinguishing individual targets...

Amongst the Knights of both sides it was considered a dishonorable
form of combat. For the English Knights, not so dishonorable, but
then again, they ended up not having to fight against superior
numbers. Matter of fact, they didn't have to fight much at all
that day. The French were decimated by the time they reached the
English line.

With Regards,
Dirk

[Marc]

Post by Dirk Collins
No, they were trained to aim at individual targets. They only shot
volleys into the French Crowd at Agincourt because, they had
trouble distinguishing individual targets...

I, was, speaking, of, Agincourt. The post I replied to spoke of Agincourt.

[JB]

Post by Marc

Post by Dirk Collins
No, they were trained to aim at individual targets. They only shot
volleys into the French Crowd at Agincourt because, they had
trouble distinguishing individual targets...

I, was, speaking, of, Agincourt. The post I replied to spoke of Agincourt.

The best experts in the field insist that the longbowmen could easily have
fired 10 aimed shots a minute at the French, not fired at random into
clusters of Frenchmen. The absolute maximum range of a powerful longbow is
round about 350 yds although it would have been fired at shorter distances.
We know that Medieval Englishmen over the age of 23 were obliged by law to
practice aiming at man sized targets at a range of 240 yards and that's
direct fire.

I also note that in a previous post you claimed that the Longbowmen fired
over the heads of other troops. That's absolute nonsense. The Longbowmen ran
in front of their own ranks, rammed stakes into the ground then shot and
retreated to the flanks or rear to continue shooting. They began at
Agincourt on the flanks and contemporary accounts tell us that their archery
was sufficient to drive the attacking cavalry away from their position.

On a side note someone posted recently about the method of stringing a bow
(IIRC it was MSB) by placing one end on the ground and bending the stave.
When I was looking up my Siege references I saw a Medieval painting that
showed the Medieval Longbowmen employing exactly this method. Maybe using
the leg as a lever like I suggested wasn't enough for such powerful bows.

[Keith Davies]

Post by JB
On a side note someone posted recently about the method of stringing a bow
(IIRC it was MSB) by placing one end on the ground and bending the stave.
When I was looking up my Siege references I saw a Medieval painting that
showed the Medieval Longbowmen employing exactly this method. Maybe using
the leg as a lever like I suggested wasn't enough for such powerful bows.

FWIW, that's how I was taught to string a bow. You place the stave of the
bow close to your foot and use your leg to stabilize the bow when you bend
the stave. This was 15 years ago, though; I don't remember the exact
placement, but I do remember what happened when Ian let the bow slip over
the grass. Near nutted himself, as I recall <g>


Keith

[Marc]

Post by Dirk Collins

Post by Gary Johnson
Benefit: As described for Power Attack on page 98 of the Player's
Handbook, except that the character may use either a light melee weapon
(if they have the Weapon Finesse feat) or a ranged weapon. If using a
ranged weapon, the target must be within 30 feet: it is not possible to
strike with deadly accuracy from beyond that range.

Really?... tell that to the ghosts of the French Knights at
Agincourt. The English Longbowmen were at ranges which exceeded
that considerably. But wait! This is D&D. My Bad...

Really? English longbowmen used aimed shots on the battlefield, at long
range? I always thought they shot massive volleys of indirect fire.

This statement agrees with my memory of the event. Or rather, my memory of
how I heard the event described.

[Christopher Adams]

Post by Marc

Really? English longbowmen used aimed shots on the battlefield, at long
range? I always thought they shot massive volleys of indirect fire.

This statement agrees with my memory of the event. Or rather, my memory
of how I heard the event described.

Yeah, good cover, Marc. No-one will suspect a thing.

--
Christopher Adams - SUTEKH Functions Officer 2003
When I awakened, I was not as I had been.

"A portfolio of erotic 'Buffy' fan-fiction does not a writer make."

- Neil, www.goats.com

[Marc]

I'm sure they did to great effect. But they also aimed too, to
great effect as well.

Considering they had to shoot OVER their own troops to reach the enemy,
not likely.

[Dirk Collins]

Post by Marc
Considering they had to shoot OVER their own troops to reach the enemy,
not likely.

Now I know you need to get back to your history books. The archers
were skirmishers, put on the flanks, and in the front rank of the
army. When the enemy approached they fell back through the ranks
to prepare for a final stand, praying the Knights would be able to
protect them. That changed at Agincourt.

With Regards,
Dirk

[Douglas Bailey]

Personally, I'm inclined to begin ignoring the 30' limitation on
bow and crossbow critical hits...

Er... *what* 30-ft. limitation?

There's no rule that says a bow or crossbow can't score a critical hit
at ranges above 30 ft.

If you're talking about extra damage from Power Attack or a rogue's
sneak attack or a ranger's favoured enemy bonus -- all of which *do*
have 30-ft. limits -- you need to say so.

doug

[Dirk Collins]

Post by Douglas Bailey

Personally, I'm inclined to begin ignoring the 30' limitation on
bow and crossbow critical hits...

Er... *what* 30-ft. limitation?
There's no rule that says a bow or crossbow can't score a critical hit
at ranges above 30 ft.
If you're talking about extra damage from Power Attack or a rogue's
sneak attack or a ranger's favoured enemy bonus -- all of which *do*
have 30-ft. limits -- you need to say so.
doug

Mmmm... quite right. Thanks for the correction on that. I would
figure you need successful sneak attack capabilities, or a power
attack capability in order to deliver enough damage to insta-kill
a 10th level target walking through a marketplace.

Learned something new there on the Power Attack! Thanks.

With Regards,
Dirk

[Michael Scott Brown]

Doesn't modern already have rules for dealing with attack by surprise?

As Sir Bob already pointed out, the fundamental of "hit point" style (ie;
d20) game systems is that the assumption "you are shot in the head" *isn't
true* - the assassin *tries* to shoot you in the head, but your
skill/luck/savvy/reflexes/etc. allow you to somehow make a defensive
movement and turn what should have been a skull-splattering assault into a
graze - the end result is a clash of intentions; the one with the trying to
shoot you in the head and the other with trying to prevent it.

-Michael

[David Meadows]

A PC is making his way through a crowded marketplace in some hellhole
in the Middle East. A sinister NPC sneaks up behind him (easy to do
in the crowded area) and, simply, shoots him in the head.
How to handle this situation?
I figure we allow the PC a listen check (to hear the bugger coming up
behind him, breathing heavily, whathaveyou) and the NPC must make a
stealth check...but what if PC fails listen and NPC succeeds at
stealth?
Instant kill?
This is where d20 kind of breaks down (though I think all systems
break down in these kind of spots). Let's consider it as the PC is a
10th level character sporting 50-60 hp. I'd hate to imagine rolling
for damage as usual, and saying, "Uh, you get shot in the head and
lose [roll] 14 hit points."

"Uh, you get shot in the head and lose [roll] 14 hit points... something
alerted you at the last instant and you instinctively moved... thanks to
your years of experience in dangerous situations [10 levels], you avoided
the lethal shot and suffered nothing more than a painful skull graze."

[Wildwood]

Finally... ***@yahoo.ca (Rick Rauser) has come back to
rec.games.frp.dnd...

A PC is making his way through a crowded marketplace in some hellhole
in the Middle East. A sinister NPC sneaks up behind him (easy to do
in the crowded area) and, simply, shoots him in the head.
How to handle this situation?
I figure we allow the PC a listen check (to hear the bugger coming up
behind him, breathing heavily, whathaveyou) and the NPC must make a
stealth check...but what if PC fails listen and NPC succeeds at
stealth?
Instant kill?
This is where d20 kind of breaks down (though I think all systems
break down in these kind of spots). Let's consider it as the PC is a
10th level character sporting 50-60 hp. I'd hate to imagine rolling
for damage as usual, and saying, "Uh, you get shot in the head and
lose [roll] 14 hit points."
Discuss.

When I run games and this comes up, I go with the precedent I learned
while playing 1st ed AD&D. In the "A" series of modules, there is a
peephole in a door the characters can look through. There is a box
(or crossbow, I forget which) set up to fire out through the peephole.

The rule on the damage was that the roll was made as normal, and then
multiplied by 10 because of the situational modifier of being shot in
the face from a range of < 6 inches.

I personally don't like just multiplying the damage by 10 (in many
cases, it was an instakill because of the limited results that are
possible), so I roll the base damage 10 times and add it for the total
damage (so, instead of rolling 1d6x10, I roll 10d6).

I then tell the players that if they start abusing the 10x damage
ruling then they could start expecting every attack from behind on
them to be shots to the head for x10 damage.

Bill

[Bill Seurer]

Discuss.

The players need a new GM if the current one is trying to instant kill
them like this.

[Geoffrey Brent]

Post by Bill Seurer

Discuss.

The players need a new GM if the current one is trying to instant kill
them like this.

Depends. Did the PC _know_ this was a dangerous place to be? If they
*know* People Like Them are being targeted in crowded areas, and don't
take any precautions, there eventually comes a point at which the GM has
to say "decisions have consequences".

A couple of months back I started up a Ravenloft game, and explained to
my players that it was basically D&D with added Things That Go Bump In
The Night. Game starts, late autumn, party escorting a merchant, they
rescue a young woman from marauding wolves. PC #1 immediately asks for a
Sense Motive to make sure she's not something nasty in disguise, which
assures me that the proper tone of paranoia has been set. Then they
arrive in the town where they'll be based for the next few sessions.

PC#1: "I'll pay to rent a room for the night."
PC#2: "Since we're both female, I'll share with PC #1 if that's OK."
PC#3: "Since I'm male, and I want to save money, I'm going to sleep
outside under a bush."

I was nice, in that it was only feral dogs that attacked him in the
middle of the night, and that they did ordinary damage rather than a
coup de grace. But I still fully expected him to die as a result of that
decision - that he didn't was due mostly to extremely fortunate dice
rolls. (And I made him make a Fort save afterwards, which he failed... I
think I'll leave it a few sessions before deciding just what to do about
that ;-) If he tries a similar stunt again, he's not likely to wake up.

In a previous D&D game, run by my wife, same player was part of a party
that killed a bunch of orcs who'd taken over a farmhouse... all except
one, who fled. The PCs then set up camp for the night, in the ruins of
the farmhouse, WITHOUT SETTING A WATCH. Two of them, including the
abovementioned player's PC, died before the third one woke up and dealt
with the remaining orc.

Sometimes, decisions have consequences. Sometimes, the logical
consequences of dumb PC decisions are "You die". I certainly don't think
a GM should _aim_ to put PCs in a certain-death situation, but if PCs
set themselves up the GM is entitled to pursue logical consequences of that.

[Marc]

A PC is making his way through a crowded marketplace in some hellhole
in the Middle East. A sinister NPC sneaks up behind him (easy to do
in the crowded area) and, simply, shoots him in the head.
How to handle this situation?
I figure we allow the PC a listen check (to hear the bugger coming up
behind him, breathing heavily, whathaveyou) and the NPC must make a
stealth check...but what if PC fails listen and NPC succeeds at
stealth?
Instant kill?

If the intent was to kill the PC, yes, otherwise, why this particular
setup?

[Geoffrey Brent]

A PC is making his way through a crowded marketplace in some hellhole
in the Middle East. A sinister NPC sneaks up behind him (easy to do
in the crowded area) and, simply, shoots him in the head.

[snip]

This is where d20 kind of breaks down (though I think all systems
break down in these kind of spots). Let's consider it as the PC is a
10th level character sporting 50-60 hp. I'd hate to imagine rolling
for damage as usual, and saying, "Uh, you get shot in the head and
lose [roll] 14 hit points."

Depends on what one means by 'breaks down'. If 'is less lethal than RL',
sure. IRL, you can die very easily that way.

But remember, those HP don't just represent the ability to withstand
physical damage. They also represent the ability to _avoid_ it, through
skill and/or luck. (At least, they do in D&D; I presume d20 Modern says
something similar).

If you walk up to a first-level PC and shoot him from behind for 14 HP,
you've just splattered his brains all over the marketplace. If not
already dead, he's likely to die very quickly, with a small chance of
stabilisation (which is vaguely realistic - people *do* survive gunshot
wounds to the head now and then).

If you walk up to a tenth-level PC with 50 HP and shoot him from behind
for 14 HP... somebody jostled you just as you were taking the shot. Or
he happened to bend over to look at something ('Day of the Jackal' has a
beautiful example of this). Or you had a defective cartridge, with
barely enough charge to give him a nasty scalp wound. Or some sixth
sense warned him at the last moment.

High-HP characters are lucky in combat situations, _by definition_,
under D&D and presumably under d20. This is not because it's hard to
make a game 'realistically lethal' - you could do that just by declaring
that you only ever get one hit die. It's because most people don't like
playing that level of lethality in a RPG. Those games that _do_ have
RL-lethal combat systems are usually intended to encourage non-combat
solutions to problems (that, or they're poorly designed).

(Which is not to say that I like everything about how d20/D&D handles
damage, but I do think 'hit points' are commonly misunderstood.)

[Sir Bob]

A PC is making his way through a crowded marketplace in some hellhole
in the Middle East. A sinister NPC sneaks up behind him (easy to do
in the crowded area) and, simply, shoots him in the head.
How to handle this situation?

I had a similar situation last night. A first level character (Tough

Hero)

approached a teenager with a concealed gun. He rushed the teen (not

seeing

the gun yet) and successfully knocked him down, but did not maintain a
grapple. He did see the gun now though (successful spot check). The
teeneager's next action is to put the gun to the character's head and pull
the trigger. It was a solid hit with a gun that dealt 2d6. The critical
dealt (IIRC) 14 points of damage, bringing the character to -5 HP. He had
taken Remain Conscious as his starting feat, so my problem was a conscious
character who has been shot in the head.

<snip>

There's no problem if you realize that in d20, damage dictates hit location,
not the other way 'round. To put it another way, *where* the shot hits is
just a descriptive reflection of the degree of damage taken/inflicted - it's
flavour text, nothing more. If the character is still alive and conscious,
then he simply wasn't injured in a manner that would preclude *being* alive
and conscious in the first place.

- Sir Bob.

[Sea Wasp]

Post by Sir Bob
<snip>
There's no problem if you realize that in d20, damage dictates hit location,
not the other way 'round.

There IS a problem if you want to have at least the possibility of
assassins making one-shot kills and you're limiting the bullet damage
to the point that it doesn't kill everyone all the time with one shot.
That is, it'd be easy to ensure that assassins always made one-shot
kills by making the bullets do 10d10+200 points per shot, but this
would mean ANYONE using a gun gets one-shot kills, which isn't the idea.

If you're cool with the idea of an assassin sighting in on an unaware
target, getting the crosshairs centered, squeezing off the shot, and
still having the target alive, despite the long experience of many RL
killers, that's fine, but some people may not go for that.

[Michael Scott Brown]

One of the central conceits of the entire hit point concept is that
high-level characters do *not* get killed in one shot; it's almost
universally bad for the game for high-level PCs to be instantly killed

by a

totally unseen danger with no possible defense or recovery, so why

bother to

simulate it?

Beacuse it is jarring to some people that you simply can't have someone
killed in a single shot.

But they *can*. You just have to coup them - WHEN THEY ARE HELPLESS.

-Michael

[Robert Scott Clark]

Post by Michael Scott Brown

One of the central conceits of the entire hit point concept is that
high-level characters do *not* get killed in one shot; it's almost
universally bad for the game for high-level PCs to be instantly killed

by a

totally unseen danger with no possible defense or recovery, so why

bother to

simulate it?

Beacuse it is jarring to some people that you simply can't have someone
killed in a single shot.

But they *can*. You just have to coup them - WHEN THEY ARE HELPLESS.

As is appropriate for heroic characters. You just shouldn't be able to
kill them easily unless there is no justifiable way for them to live - ie
they are helpless and could not concievably defend themselves in any way
whatsoever.

Hell, with all the gods floating around interfering in the affairs of man,
it wouldn't screw with my SoD too much if they took CdGs away.


Or you could massive damage them (or did they take that out in 3.5? I hope
they did it just doesn't seem to fit genre to me.)

[Justisaur]

Post by Robert Scott Clark

Post by Michael Scott Brown

One of the central conceits of the entire hit point concept is that
high-level characters do *not* get killed in one shot; it's almost
universally bad for the game for high-level PCs to be instantly killed

by a

totally unseen danger with no possible defense or recovery, so why

bother to

simulate it?

Beacuse it is jarring to some people that you simply can't have someone
killed in a single shot.

But they *can*. You just have to coup them - WHEN THEY ARE HELPLESS.

As is appropriate for heroic characters. You just shouldn't be able to
kill them easily unless there is no justifiable way for them to live - ie
they are helpless and could not concievably defend themselves in any way
whatsoever.
Hell, with all the gods floating around interfering in the affairs of man,
it wouldn't screw with my SoD too much if they took CdGs away.
Or you could massive damage them (or did they take that out in 3.5? I hope
they did it just doesn't seem to fit genre to me.)

IIRC they left it in. I've rule 0'd it away IMC though.

[Robert Scott Clark]

Post by Justisaur

Post by Robert Scott Clark
Or you could massive damage them (or did they take that out in 3.5?
I hope they did it just doesn't seem to fit genre to me.)

IIRC they left it in. I've rule 0'd it away IMC though.

I've never used it, but if a player actually bothered to read the rules and
mentioned it during a game I would probably allow it.

[Rupert Boleyn]

On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 03:49:41 GMT, Robert Scott Clark

Post by Robert Scott Clark
Or you could massive damage them (or did they take that out in 3.5? I hope
they did it just doesn't seem to fit genre to me.)

It's still there. In d20 Modern massive damage occurs at your Con in
points of damage, but only takes you to -1 hit points. Thus a good hit
can put even a tough high level character down and leave them dying.
If no one with a good first aid skill helps them they could well bleed
out and die on the spot.

[Marc]

Post by Michael Scott Brown

One of the central conceits of the entire hit point concept is that
high-level characters do *not* get killed in one shot; it's almost
universally bad for the game for high-level PCs to be instantly killed

by a

totally unseen danger with no possible defense or recovery, so why

bother to

simulate it?

Beacuse it is jarring to some people that you simply can't have someone
killed in a single shot.

But they *can*. You just have to coup them - WHEN THEY ARE HELPLESS.

But even then you might not successfully kill them in one shot, especially
if they have high saves. Would you include the situation under glass here
as a Helpless situation allowing a coup de grace?

[Michael Scott Brown]

Post by Marc

Post by Michael Scott Brown

Beacuse it is jarring to some people that you simply can't have someone
killed in a single shot.

But they *can*. You just have to coup them - WHEN THEY ARE HELPLESS.

But even then you might not successfully kill them in one shot, especially
if they have high saves.

JUST LIKE IN REAL LIFE.

Post by Marc
Would you include the situation under glass here
as a Helpless situation allowing a coup de grace?

I think that making surprise attacks coups would be one of the most
stupid decisions a role playing gamer could make, as it makes the game
unplayable. Give the hero his due -the same way you're giving the mook his.

-Michael

[David Johnston]

Post by Michael Scott Brown

Post by Marc

Post by Michael Scott Brown

Beacuse it is jarring to some people that you simply can't have someone
killed in a single shot.

But they *can*. You just have to coup them - WHEN THEY ARE

HELPLESS.

Post by Marc
But even then you might not successfully kill them in one shot, especially
if they have high saves.

JUST LIKE IN REAL LIFE.

Post by Marc
Would you include the situation under glass here
as a Helpless situation allowing a coup de grace?

I think that making surprise attacks coups would be one of the most
stupid decisions a role playing gamer could make, as it makes the game
unplayable. Give the hero his due -the same way you're giving the mook his.

I think it would depend on whether the character being targeted has the
faintest clue that he might be in danger. Most people don't and hence are
easy prey. PCs on the other hand are men and women who live a life
danger. Everyone they meet stay's a stranger. With every move they
make, another chance they take. But they know that, which means
their actual odds of seeing tomorrow are quite a bit better than
someone who didn't suspect that people might be wanting to kill them.

[Geoffrey Brent]

Beacuse it is jarring to some people that you simply can't have
someone killed in a single shot. The close you get to today's reality
the less suspension of disbelief is allowed. So people that have no
trouble with it taking (minimum) 20 sword whacks to down a guy have
HUGE problems with it taking (minimum) 20 gun shots to down a guy.

I always thought one or two solid hits with a sword, by pretty much
anyone, would have no trouble at all in dealing enough damage to kill a
person.

Bill's point was that we have less tolerance for "unrealistic" rules
when dealing with what you know. These days we're more familiar with
guns than swords, so we tend to demand more realism with gun rules.

[Robert Scott Clark]

Post by Geoffrey Brent

Beacuse it is jarring to some people that you simply can't have
someone killed in a single shot. The close you get to today's reality
the less suspension of disbelief is allowed. So people that have no
trouble with it taking (minimum) 20 sword whacks to down a guy have
HUGE problems with it taking (minimum) 20 gun shots to down a guy.

I always thought one or two solid hits with a sword, by pretty much
anyone, would have no trouble at all in dealing enough damage to kill a
person.

Bill's point was that we have less tolerance for "unrealistic" rules
when dealing with what you know. These days we're more familiar with
guns than swords, so we tend to demand more realism with gun rules.

I have certainly cut myself with blades much smaller than a sword many more
times than I have been shot, so I can pretty safely say I have a much
better grasp of being cut than of being shot. After having seen what an
xacto knife can accidentally do to a person, I have a hard time believing
that someone trying to kill me with a blade 100X bigger would have much
trouble doing so.

[Geoffrey Brent]

Post by Robert Scott Clark

Post by Geoffrey Brent
Bill's point was that we have less tolerance for "unrealistic" rules
when dealing with what you know. These days we're more familiar with
guns than swords, so we tend to demand more realism with gun rules.

I have certainly cut myself with blades much smaller than a sword many more
times than I have been shot, so I can pretty safely say I have a much
better grasp of being cut than of being shot. After having seen what an
xacto knife can accidentally do to a person, I have a hard time believing
that someone trying to kill me with a blade 100X bigger would have much
trouble doing so.

You might be surprised. I can't find the reference at the moment,
despite extensive Googling, but I read an interesting piece a
while back on effects of injuries in historical duels (making the
point that people are surprisingly good at surviving, at least
until infection sets in, and even those who don't frequently live
long enough to kill their attacker).

One gentleman, after taking a rapier that passed through his lung
and came out through his back, proceeded to kill his opponent and
lived for many years afterwards. Swords are certainly dangerous
weapons, but killing people with them is nontrivial. It's easy
enough to draw blood, but important structures are well-protected.

[Geoffrey Brent]

http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/bloody.shtml
http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/kill2.shtml

Indeed it was. Thank you!

[Dirk Collins]

One gentleman, after taking a rapier that passed through his lung and
came out through his back, proceeded to kill his opponent and lived for
many years afterwards. Swords are certainly dangerous weapons, but
killing people with them is nontrivial. It's easy enough to draw blood,
but important structures are well-protected.

Killing people with a rapier may be non-trivial, but a great
sword, broadsword, longsword, short sword (Roman style), cutlass,
or any of a variety of axes deals sufficient damage to cause
lethal damage or limb loss...

There are plenty of tales of folks lucky enough to take a hit from
such weapons, survive and flourish, but the dead cannot speak to
the effectiveness of the weapons, cause they are... well... dead.

With Regards,
Dirk

[Bradd W. Szonye]

... I read an interesting piece a while back on effects of injuries in
historical duels (making the point that people are surprisingly good
at surviving, at least until infection sets in, and even those who
don't frequently live long enough to kill their attacker).

Yep.

One gentleman, after taking a rapier that passed through his lung and
came out through his back, proceeded to kill his opponent and lived
for many years afterwards. Swords are certainly dangerous weapons, but
killing people with them is nontrivial. It's easy enough to draw
blood, but important structures are well-protected.

Note that the same things protect people from bullets. One-shot stops
and kills are rare with firearms, just as they are with swords.

[Scott Schimmel]

On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:09:01 -0500, Bill Seurer

Beacuse it is jarring to some people that you simply can't have someone
killed in a single shot. The close you get to today's reality the less
suspension of disbelief is allowed. So people that have no trouble with
it taking (minimum) 20 sword whacks to down a guy have HUGE problems
with it taking (minimum) 20 gun shots to down a guy.

Note that, in d20 Modern, the guy who can take 20 gun shots is not
just "a guy." He is a pulp hero. Think Doc Savage, Tarzan, James
Bond, Han Solo, Rambo, Morpheus from Matrix, the heroes of movies like
Die Hard or True Lies, Marvel's Punisher or Nick Fury. Even in a
modern game, a high-level character is a capital-H Hero, and
suspension of disbelief is absolutely called for.

Those who don't like it should limit characters to level 2 or 3... or
find a system that better suits their needs, one where people play
"people" rather than "heroic people."

[Marc]

Wait for it: ALTERNITY!
Yep, the generic Sci-Fi system WotC put a wack of cash and time into and
then drop like hot potato.

My Alternity lies over in limbo,
My Alternity lies over forgotten,
My Alternity lies over in limbo,
Bring back my Alternity to me.

Bring back, Bring back,
Bring back my Alternity to me,
To me.
Bring back, bring back
Bring back my Alternity to me.

[Rupert Boleyn]

Of cause munchkins maximize the Constitutions scores so that they end up
with 7 or so mortal points, and then pick the Vigor - Mortal perk (for one
extra point) as soon as they can. But that means they get killed by two
bullets instead of one.

My experience was that most mortal damage wasn't enough to kill
outright, but that quite a few characters died at the end of the
combat scene or a hour later due to failed checks against losing more
mortal points. This struck me as nicely realistic, though the death
spiral effects aren't (easily fixed by not applying penalties from
damage until _after_ the fight the wounds were gained in).

[Frank Scrooby]

Hi all
<<previous message snipped>>

Post by Rupert Boleyn
My experience was that most mortal damage wasn't enough to kill
outright, but that quite a few characters died at the end of the

This is correct. If you consider that on average an average human PC will 5
Mortal points and the average d6 will produce an average result of 3.5
(average of 3 and 4). Most of the time you're going to have the average PC
suffering 3 or 4 mortal at a go. This also inflicts 3 or 4 wound and 3 or 4
stun in secondary damage, which can be enough to blow an already beatup PC
into unconsciousness anyway.

Post by Rupert Boleyn
combat scene or a hour later due to failed checks against losing more

After taking Mortal damage the PC has to immediately make a Resolve -
Physical skill check to remain function. Resolve - Physical is a Will skill.
Again assuming an average Ability score (9) and non-miracleous skill levels
(3) the player has to roll under a 12 on a d20 to keep the PC standing. If
he doesn't make it (a 40% chance) the PC become unconscious and will need
First Aid or he will die within the next hour.

Post by Rupert Boleyn
mortal points. This struck me as nicely realistic, though the death
spiral effects aren't (easily fixed by not applying penalties from
damage until _after_ the fight the wounds were gained in).

I'm not sure why you consider the 'death spiral effects' by which I assume
you mean the step penalties applied to all actions made by the mortally
wounded PC in subsequent phases isn't realistic. The PC has just been shot
with a .45 slug or a .303 designed for killing 100 kg antelope. Its not a
graze, or a flesh wound or dud round. Its a frigging mortal wound. The PC's
life blood is running out through a big gapping hole in his
chest/head/abdomen/other vital body part. No one but an amped up mutant or a
maxi-modded cyborg should be able to continue functioning with. The way
sensible players avoid this is to wear good body armour (which doesn't
really exist at PL4 and PL5) or to avoid getting shot at.

Which brings us back to the situation originally described:

In Alternity, assuming the assassin is using Stealth he can earn up to a
three step bonus depending on the degree of success of his Sneak roll. As he
is attacking the PC from behind he gets a 2 step bonus. Because he is using
a pistol at short range (3.5 meters) he will get an additional 1 step bonus.
If he can get to Point Blank Range he will get an extra 3-step bonus. I
would assume nothing but an Ordinary success for the Sneak roll, and that he
can get to short Range.

That gets him a total of four step bonus. This means that he will have a d12
as a bonus die on his attack roll. If his skills are ordinary for a low
level assassin character the assassin will need to roll under a 14. 11 for
Dexterity (11 Dexterity is the minimum for a Free Agent, which is what an
Assassin or thief should be) + 3 for the Modern Range Weapons - Pistol
skill.

The d20 is rolled with the d12 and the result of the d12 is subtracted from
the result of d12. On average this should be an easy shot for the assassin
to at least wound the PC. Average on a d20 is 10.5 and on a d12 is 6.5. That
gives an average result of 4.5. In Alterntiy to decide the degree of success
of an action you take the base success requirement (the 14), half it for the
good success and half it again for the Amazing success. You always round up
in Alternity. Thus the success map looks like 14/7/4/ So 4.5 is just above
the Amazing success score. If the assassin rolls just better than average he
gets Amazing damage and the PC will probably take mortal damage and descend
into a death spiral if his companions can't defend him and treat him.

If the assassin had gotten a Good or Amazing Sneak success bonus dice would
have been a d20, making the chance of success even more likely, or allowing
the assassin to make the Shot a Called Shot. If he had made it a Called
Shot, he could opted for a Dead Eye Shot, which takes a 4-step penalty, but
upgrades the damage of any successful attack by one category. If the
assassin scores an Amazing hit with a Dead eye Shot he would double the
Mortal damage die rolls.

Of cause sensible Alternity PCs probably avoid crowds and watch their backs.
Paranoia is a player trait not just a PC trait.


Regards
Frank

[Hermann Hesse]

Seems like the simplest solution here would be to extend the Coup de
Grace rules to any situation where the attacker has a free, unobstructed
shot at an adjacent target who's not in a position to defend themselves
(whether unconscious, restrained, or simply taken unawares). Keeping in
mind that PCs will also make use of this, and balancing opponents
accordingly.

They already apply to those situations, save the fact that the attacker has
to be adjacent to the defender.

// Hermann

[Hermann Hesse]

I'm confused here. Which of us was saying the attacker *didn't*
have to be adjacent to the target?

Apparently not as confused as I. =)

// Hermann

[Bradd W. Szonye]

Post by Sea Wasp
There IS a problem if you want to have at least the possibility of
assassins making one-shot kills ....

That's probably why assassins and rogues get heaps of bonus damage when
they make surprise attacks.

[Kevin Lowe]

A PC is making his way through a crowded marketplace in some hellhole
in the Middle East. A sinister NPC sneaks up behind him (easy to do
in the crowded area) and, simply, shoots him in the head.
How to handle this situation?
I figure we allow the PC a listen check (to hear the bugger coming up
behind him, breathing heavily, whathaveyou) and the NPC must make a
stealth check...but what if PC fails listen and NPC succeeds at
stealth?
Instant kill?
This is where d20 kind of breaks down (though I think all systems
break down in these kind of spots). Let's consider it as the PC is a
10th level character sporting 50-60 hp. I'd hate to imagine rolling
for damage as usual, and saying, "Uh, you get shot in the head and
lose [roll] 14 hit points."
Discuss.

If the sinister NPC is a real pro, and lets the PC have it with (for
example) Lightning Shot, Double Tap and Bullseye they could well stack
up over 100 damage before the PC gets to act.

Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.

[Hermann Hesse]

Instant kill?

This is a textbook example, p55 in the Modern Core Rulebook, which states
that a gunshot to the head renders the victim a 'helpless defender', and
hence enables a coup de grace if they are adjacent, as they were indeed in
your example.

This is where d20 kind of breaks down (though I think all systems
break down in these kind of spots).

I agree with your general statement, save the "all systems" part. Usually
they offer a system for critical damages which is far more elaborate than
just double damage and negate armour (Rolemaster comes to mind). Or, even
better, they deal with hit locations (Twilight: 2000, for instance). Better
yet, they don't use level-based character development at all.

At the receiving end of a bullet, a seasoned Vietnam veteran is just as
vulnerable as a the average person. Nothing justifies that a level 10
character should have 10 times as many hit points as a level 1 character.
Increase in AC/Defence due to reflexes and what have you, sure, but not hit
points. You don't "roll with" a bullet.

But, see, the point here is that d20 isn't realistic. Quite the opposite,
d20 Modern makes no claims, it even uses "he's tough as nails" as to
motivate why one characters have more hit points than another. Some people
use different damage systems for d20, which doesn't really explain why they
don't change game system entirely. It's not that fancy, really, if you ask
me.

I'm not quite sure what the debate is supposed to be about. If you want to
play in a realistic modern setting, then Twilight: 2000 (or Merc: 2000,
perhaps) is as close as you get, I wot, and even that doesn't really do a
good job at it, since it is a built-in mechanism of the game that NPCs are
always much weaker, damage-wise, than PCs. There might be some other system
I've missed.

// Hermann

[Hermann Hesse]

And that's page 141, not 55. ;)

// Hermann

[Hermann Hesse]

And finally, for quick reference:

Modern Core Rulebook, page 141:

"Even if you have a lot of hit points, a gunshot to the head is a gunshot to
the head. When a character can't avoid damage or deflect blows somehow -
when he's really helpless - he's in trouble (see Helpless Defenders, page
146).

Page 146:

"A helpless foe - one who is bound, sleeping, unconscious *or otherwise at
your mercy* - is an easy target. You can sometimes approach a target who is
unware of your presence, get adjacent to him, and treat him as helpless."

// Hermann

[Marc]

Post by Hermann Hesse
"A helpless foe - one who is bound, sleeping, unconscious *or otherwise at
your mercy* - is an easy target. You can sometimes approach a target who is
unware of your presence, get adjacent to him, and treat him as helpless."

Makes sense to me.

[Chad Lubrecht]

Post by Hermann Hesse

Instant kill?

This is a textbook example, p55 in the Modern Core Rulebook, which states
that a gunshot to the head renders the victim a 'helpless defender', and
hence enables a coup de grace if they are adjacent, as they were indeed in
your example.

So all I have to do in a fight is claim that I'm shooting someone in
the head and I can make a coup de grace?

[Marc]

Post by Chad Lubrecht

Post by Hermann Hesse

Instant kill?

This is a textbook example, p55 in the Modern Core Rulebook, which states
that a gunshot to the head renders the victim a 'helpless defender', and
hence enables a coup de grace if they are adjacent, as they were indeed in
your example.

So all I have to do in a fight is claim that I'm shooting someone in
the head and I can make a coup de grace?

Nay, at least not to me, it means that if you have the right setup, such
as the example at the beginning of this thread, you can.

[Dirk Collins]

Post by Hermann Hesse
There might be some other system
I've missed.

The Morrow Project is back...

www.timelineltd.com

With Regards,
Dirk

[hikaru]

A PC is making his way through a crowded marketplace in some hellhole
in the Middle East. A sinister NPC sneaks up behind him (easy to do
in the crowded area) and, simply, shoots him in the head.
How to handle this situation?

I had a similar situation last night. A first level character (Tough

Hero)

approached a teenager with a concealed gun. He rushed the teen (not

seeing

the gun yet) and successfully knocked him down, but did not maintain a
grapple. He did see the gun now though (successful spot check). The
teeneager's next action is to put the gun to the character's head and pull
the trigger. It was a solid hit with a gun that dealt 2d6. The critical
dealt (IIRC) 14 points of damage, bringing the character to -5 HP. He had
taken Remain Conscious as his starting feat, so my problem was a conscious
character who has been shot in the head. I dealt with it as combat
adrenaline. He was subdued by the group's medic and given drugs,
stabilization, and eventually surgery. Before that, he managed to get out
his taser, and kept tasering the teen who shot him, even though the teen's
police officer father was there, gun in hand.
Had he taken more than his 16 CON in damage, I would have had him make a
massive damage save.

Its scary, but this is not necessarily unrealistic. 4 years ago a police
officer in my hometown pulled up to a guy loitering outside on the sidewalk
at 2 am. dude pulls a sawed off shotgun from under his coat, and unloads
both barrels into the cops face. Cops gets out of the car, lower jaw barely
hanging on by a couple scraps of meat, chases the guy down, beats him up,
and handcuffs him. He had to have major reconstructive surgery, but he now
just carries a few scars. he can speak, chew, whatever, just fine.

[Justisaur]

Post by Sir Bob

A PC is making his way through a crowded marketplace in some hellhole
in the Middle East. A sinister NPC sneaks up behind him (easy to do
in the crowded area) and, simply, shoots him in the head.
How to handle this situation?

I had a similar situation last night. A first level character (Tough

Hero)

approached a teenager with a concealed gun. He rushed the teen (not

seeing

the gun yet) and successfully knocked him down, but did not maintain a
grapple. He did see the gun now though (successful spot check). The
teeneager's next action is to put the gun to the character's head and pull
the trigger. It was a solid hit with a gun that dealt 2d6. The critical
dealt (IIRC) 14 points of damage, bringing the character to -5 HP. He had
taken Remain Conscious as his starting feat, so my problem was a conscious
character who has been shot in the head. I dealt with it as combat
adrenaline. He was subdued by the group's medic and given drugs,
stabilization, and eventually surgery. Before that, he managed to get out
his taser, and kept tasering the teen who shot him, even though the teen's
police officer father was there, gun in hand.
Had he taken more than his 16 CON in damage, I would have had him make a
massive damage save.

Its scary, but this is not necessarily unrealistic. 4 years ago a police
officer in my hometown pulled up to a guy loitering outside on the sidewalk
at 2 am. dude pulls a sawed off shotgun from under his coat, and unloads
both barrels into the cops face. Cops gets out of the car, lower jaw barely
hanging on by a couple scraps of meat, chases the guy down, beats him up,
and handcuffs him. He had to have major reconstructive surgery, but he now
just carries a few scars. he can speak, chew, whatever, just fine.

If someone shot me in the face and I still had enough presence of mind
to chase them down, I sure as hell wouldn't just handcuff them.
Probably why I'm not a cop...

[Darius]

You I would swear we went over this before. It seems most people would opt
for a "coup de grace" attempt.

A PC is making his way through a crowded marketplace in some hellhole
in the Middle East. A sinister NPC sneaks up behind him (easy to do
in the crowded area) and, simply, shoots him in the head.
How to handle this situation?
I figure we allow the PC a listen check (to hear the bugger coming up
behind him, breathing heavily, whathaveyou) and the NPC must make a
stealth check...but what if PC fails listen and NPC succeeds at
stealth?
Instant kill?
This is where d20 kind of breaks down (though I think all systems
break down in these kind of spots). Let's consider it as the PC is a
10th level character sporting 50-60 hp. I'd hate to imagine rolling
for damage as usual, and saying, "Uh, you get shot in the head and
lose [roll] 14 hit points."
Discuss.

[Ty]

A PC is making his way through a crowded marketplace in some hellhole
in the Middle East. A sinister NPC sneaks up behind him (easy to do
in the crowded area) and, simply, shoots him in the head.
How to handle this situation?
I figure we allow the PC a listen check (to hear the bugger coming up
behind him, breathing heavily, whathaveyou) and the NPC must make a
stealth check...but what if PC fails listen and NPC succeeds at
stealth?
Instant kill?

It's all a question of how you run your game IMHO. If you run a high PC
body-count game, then yep he dies -- and no one should have their feelings
hurt. Caveat emptor.

But if you tend to let the PCs be a lot better than normal, just killing him
like that leaves a distinctly bad taste. What I like to do is use the laws
of probability. I'd call for a series of die rolls so that eventually, the
PC will almost certainly make the roll. One the first one he makes, go to
the non-death result. So...

"An assasin moves in on you, he's a little obvious, but you don't
automatically see him. Roll to spot him." <player misses roll>

"Well, he creeps up, he smells bad, so you might notice him as he moves in.
Roll to sense him" <player misses roll>

"You don't notice him, so he cocks the pistol. Roll to hear the click."
<player misses roll>

"He puts the gun to the back of your head. Your hairs bristle. Roll to react
before he shoots."<player misses roll>

"Since you missed the roll, he gets a certain chance to simply kill you.
<Roll dice behind screen> Aw bummer, he only does quintuple <or whatever>
damage. <Roll LOTS of dice behind screen. With dismay state this: "Bleep it,
he only did <1 less than the number of hit points character has left> points
of bleeping damage."

If the PC has only a 35% chance of making each of the above rolls, he'll
make one of the 4 rolls about 82% of the time. And if he doesn't and you do
decide to kill him, he'll probably agree that his dice just sucked. Also
note that in each step, the assasin made a slight error (too obvious, smells
bad, etc.). This allows you to deny these rolls when you need an assassin to
be more effective.

Ideally, let the player make all his character's rolls. That way if he dies,
you're not to blame...

--Ty

[Quentin Stephens]

A PC is making his way through a crowded marketplace in some
hellhole in the Middle East. A sinister NPC sneaks up behind
him (easy to do in the crowded area) and, simply, shoots him in
the head.
How to handle this situation?
I figure we allow the PC a listen check (to hear the bugger
coming up behind him, breathing heavily, whathaveyou) and the
NPC must make a stealth check...but what if PC fails listen and
NPC succeeds at stealth?
Instant kill?
This is where d20 kind of breaks down (though I think all
systems break down in these kind of spots). Let's consider it
as the PC is a 10th level character sporting 50-60 hp. I'd hate
to imagine rolling for damage as usual, and saying, "Uh, you get
shot in the head and lose [roll] 14 hit points."
Discuss.

You need to consider the abstraction of HP: they encompass health,
luck, skill... DND only allows instakill sans save when the victim
is absolutely helpless. Maybe the character feels it brush his hair
and jerks in time? Treat this as an automatic critical, but no more
(and that's being generous).