Boons and Banes for D&D characters (New & REALLY Long!)

[Skyblind]

BOONS And BANES (11th edition) By Skyblind (***@cogeco.ca)

This house rule for d20 D&D (3.0 or 3.5, either one should
work) allows for the use of special traits called Boons and Banes in a
D&D game, to enhance or detract from Player character abilities. A
Boon is a good thing for a character, and a Bane is a bad thing.
Boons and Banes (if overdone in either direction) can make a character
too powerful, or un-playable with disadvantages.

The whole point is that they should enhance the role-playing
aspect of the game, and to make it fun - not a torture-session. Thus,
each Boon and Bane have been assigned a numerical value (from +5 to
-5), and the DM will set an "Acceptable" level of Boons/Banes for the
players - such as "No one may have more than a net +2 bonus, or less
than -2." For Smaller groups (such as 2-3 players) the "Game Boon
Level" can be slightly higher, and for large groups the GBL should be
smaller.

Boons and Banes should be chosen based on the players
character concept, and with the DM's assistance. This is to ensure
the DM will allow the boons and banes you choose into his game - some
DMs may not want to run a game with some Boons or Banes, or find them
too weak or too powerful.

Random Die Roll Method
Roll d100 on the chart below once, to determine the total
value (positive or negative) of any Boons and Banes the Character
possesses. A player may always choose to have NO boons or banes for
his character. Boons and Banes are optional!

d100 Total Special & Modifiers
<=01 -4 The DM may modify the average party Boon & Bane level
02-05 -3 by either modifying the random dice roll on the chart
to the left (Such as “All
06-20 -2 players get +10% to their rolls), or may simply
declare all players get
21-40 -1 whatever Boons/Banes they roll, +2 (or -2 for a
particularly hard game).
41-60 +0
61-80 +1 Average Values of Boons/Banes should be somewhere
around +0 to +2 for
81-95 +2 an average group of 4-6 players, and average around +2
(or more) for groups
96-99 +3 with less than 4 players.
100+ +4


Special Boons and Banes
Some boons and banes are classified as "Special" - which means
they are unusual, or unusually powerful, and cannot be chosen without
DM permission. This will usually require you to talk to your DM, and
(at the very least) write a background explaining why your character
has the unusual boon or bane.


Gaining & Losing Boons and Banes
Sometimes it is possible to gain or lose a boon or bane after
character creation, whether through magical experiment or horrific
injury, intense training or powerful roleplaying. The DM will be the
final arbiter of who gains or loses a Boon or Bane, according to his
judgement and the following guidelines.

In the case of Injuries (Such as Blindness or One Hand) it is
usually assumed that physical and mental disabilities require at least
7th level spells to repair - otherwise they would already have been
done. Likewise, without magical experimentation or some odd
confluence of events, it would be odd (to say the least) for a human
to develop Low Light Vision after character creation without magic
being involved - and in such cases, a 7th level spell or more is
usually required. Gold and XP costs should be levied against both the
Caster of the spell, and the person receiving the Boon (Usually using
a Limited Wish, Wish, or Miracle). When a person loses a Bane in
this fashion, it can be considered the same as gaining a boon, above.
Since Wish costs about 30,000gp and 5000xp, Players aren't likely to
rush out and try to buy the market dry in spellcaster-granted boons.

When a person gains a Bane through the events of the game, he
is not usually rewarded with any XP or Gold as compensation, although
(for example) he might allow a newly-blinded player character develop
the Acute Hearing boon, or gain the Blind-fight feat through the
“Additional Feat” Boon.


BOONS & BANES

PHYSICAL BOONS Value
Appearance Related
Attractive +1
Handsome/Beautiful +2
Very Handsome/Beautiful +3
Perfect Beauty +5
Attractive Scar +1
Attractive Voice +2

Acute Senses
Acute Hearing +2
Acute Vision +2
Acute Smell/Taste +2
Low-Light Vision +1

Increased Stat
(+1 STR, DEX, or CON) +2 Each

Movement Related
Quickstride +5ft +1
Quickstride +10ft +2

Spell Resistance
Magical Toughness +2
Spell Resistance (10+1/level) +5

Miscellaneous
Alcohol Tolerance +1
Double-jointed +1
Hard to Kill +1
Longevity +1
Rapid Healing +2
Resistant to Disease +1
Resistant to Poison +1
Toughness (DR -/1) +2 /pt
Additional Feat +3



MENTAL BOONS Value
Skill/Feat Related
Additional Feat +3
Craft Skill +1
Extra Class Skills +1
Increased Skill Points +3
Language Talent +1
Perform Skill +1
Profession Skill +1
Weapon Master +3

Social/Wealth Related
Heirloom (less than 500gp) +1
Heirloom (Magic Item) +2 to +4
Noble Family +2
Property +2
Wealth +1

Increased Stat
(+1 INT, WIS, or CHR) +2 Each

Miscellaneous
Absolute Direction +1
Animal Empathy +1
Common Sense +2
Eidetic Memory +2
Empathy +2
Fashion Sense +1
Intuition +1
Investments +1 to +2
Peripheral Vision +3
Strong Will +1



SPECIAL BOONS Value
Luck Related
Jinxed +2
Luck +1 /pt

Outsider Related
Blessed by a Deity +3
Blessed by an Elemental +3
Planewalker +3
Reanimation +3
Reincarnation +3
Resurrection +5

Miscellaneous
Danger Sense +2
Innate Magical Spell +1 to +3
Landed Noble +4
Mage Sight +3
Shapechanger +3
Snatching +3
The Evil Eye +3


Physical Banes Value
Appearance Related
Unattractive -1
Ugly -2
Very Ugly -3
Monstrously Hideous -5
Ugly Scar -1
Disturbing Voice -2

Decreased Senses
Color Blind -1
Night Blindness -1
Poor Hearing -2
Deaf -4
Poor Vision -2
Blind -4
Mute -2

Decreased Stat
(-1 STR, DEX, or CON) -2 Each

Disabilities
One Eye -2
One Hand -2
Lame -2
One Arm or Leg -3
Paraplegic -4

Weight Related
Skinny -1
Overweight -1
Fat -2
Obese -3

Age Related
Aged (50+ years old) -2
Frail -3
Youth (15 or less years old) -1

Miscellaneous
Addiction -1 to -3
Easily Intoxicated -1
Slow Healer -2
Susceptible to Disease -1
Susceptible to Poison -1
Sterile -1



Mental Banes Value
Skill/Feat Related
Illiterate -1
Innumerate -2
Reduced Class Skills -1
Reduced Feats -3 /feat
Uneducated -3

Social/Wealth Related
Long-Term Enemy -2
Reduced Status (Serf) -1
Reduced Status (Slave) -2
Reduced Status (Criminal) -2
Reduced Starting Cash -1

Decreased Stat
(-1 INT, WIS, or CHR) -2 each

Miscellaneous
Addiction -1 to -3
Berserker -2
Chummy -1
Combat Paralysis -2
Curiosity -1
Greed -1 to -3
Impulsiveness -1
Insomniac -1
Nightmares -1 to -2
On The Edge -2
Phobia -1 to -3
Sleepwalker -1
Spendthrift -1
Stuttering -1 to -2
Truthfullness -2
Weak Will -1



SPECIAL BANES Value
Cursed -2
Cursed by a Deity -3 to -5
Evil Twin / Arch Enemy -3
Infernal Attention -3
Magic Dead -2
Quirk* -1 to -3
Unluck -3 or -5



NOTE: All Boons and Banes may only be taken ONCE - unless the text
description of the Boon or Bane explicitly declares the Boon or Bane
can be taken multiple times. However, if a “Catch-all” Boon or Bane
is taken, such as “Innate Magic Spell”, “Craft Skill”, or “Quirk”,
they may be taken multiple times if (and ONLY if) the Powers, Skill,
or Quirks involved are fairly different from each other. For example,
you could take Innate Magic Spell: Disrupt Undead, and Innate Magic
Spell: Mage Hand - but you couldn’t take Innate Magic Spell: Mage Hand
twice to get 2x the number of uses out of it - unless the DM gives you
express permission.




PHYSICAL BOONS
Appearance-Related Boons

Attractive - The character is considered to have a
pleasing appearance, and is considered attractive by those that find
members of the characters sex appealing. The Character gains +3 to
Bluff and Diplomacy skill checks against people that find the
character attractive.

Handsome/Beautiful - The character is considered to be Handsome
or Beautiful (as appropriate), by those that find members of the
characters sex appealing. The character gains +1 to Bluff and
Diplomacy skill checks vs all members of any race that finds the
characters race appealing, and +6 to Bluff and Diplomacy skill checks
against people that find the character attractive. The +1 and +6
bonus do not stack - use only the +6 bonus if both apply..

Very Handsome/Beautiful - The character is considered to be Very
Handsome or Very Beautiful (as appropriate) by those that find members
of the characters sex appealing. The character gains +2 to Bluff and
Diplomacy skill checks vs members of any race that finds the
characters race appealing, and +8 to Bluff and Diplomacy skill
checks against people that find the character attractive. The +2 and
the +8 bonus do not stack - use only the +8 bonus if both apply.

Perfect Beauty - The character is considered a “Perfect
Specimen” of his or her sex, and is thought to possess unearthly
beauty by those that would normally find the character appealing. The
character gains +3 to Bluff and Diplomacy skill checks vs members of
any race that finds the characters race appealing, and +10 to Bluff
and Diplomacy skill checks against people that find the character
attractive. The +3 and the +10 bonus do not stack - use only the +10
bonus if both apply.

Attractive Scar - The PC has a scar somewhere visible
on his or her body that `looks dashing' instead of gross, and adds +2
to all reaction rolls (Bluff, Diplomacy, and possibly Intimidate)
where the scar can be seen.

Attractive Voice - The PC has a clear, resonant voice
which sounds quite attractive. The PC gets +2 on all reactions where
her voice would be heard. It will also add +2 to skills such as
Diplomacy and Perform, and Bluff. The bonuses are cumulative with
the powers and skills of a Bard PC.


Acute Senses Boons
Acute Hearing The PC can hear even the smallest sounds if
lucky! The PC gets a bonus of +4 to all Listen skill checks.

Acute Vision The PC can see clearly at far ranges, reducing
the range penalty "to-hit" for missile weapons by one Range Increment
(ie: a +2 bonus useful only for negating range penalties). The PC
also gets a +2 bonus on Search and Spot rolls.

Acute Taste/Smell The PC has exceptional senses, and can taste
or smell with a +2 to Craft:Alchemy, Profession: Cook, and Survival
(for Tracking only). The GM can also allow a +2 circumstance bonus to
Spot when downwind of something rather smelly (signifying the
character smelling the "something" before actually *seeing* it). If
the DM feels this is too "Wussy", then this Boon grants the character
that receives it the "Scent" special ability (See Monster Manual), in
addtion to the abilities listed above. If this power is granted, I
suggest raising the cost of this boon to +3.

Low-Light Vision - The character gains Low Light Vision
(if he does not already possess it). If the character already has
Low Light Vision, the DM may say this boon has no further effect (and
is thus wasted) or may allow the character to instead gain Darkvision
to a range of 60 feet.


Stat-Related Boons
Increased Stat Each time the character selects this Boon, he
may permanently add +1 to his STR, DEX, or CON score (not all three!).
A Character may take this Boon multiple times, for any combination of
stats (as long as he can afford it).


Movement-Related Boons
Quickstride +5ft -The character’s base movement is
increased by +5ft, permanently. Medium and Heavy armor still slows
the characters’ movements, and will hamper his maximum speed. This
speed bonus stacks with the speed increase gained by members of the
Barbarian and Monk classes

Quickstride +10ft The character’s base movement is increased by
+10ft, permanently. Medium and Heavy armor still slows the
characters’ movements, and will hamper his maximum speed. This speed
bonus stacks with the speed increase gained by members of the
Barbarian and Monk classes.


Spell Resistance Boons
Magical Toughness - The character has an unusual resistance to
damaging and harmful spells, and gains DR -/2 versus any form of
magical spell that causes damage (using the whole spell as a
guideline, not each particular missile the spell might create). For
example, if a character with Magical Toughness was hit by 3 magic
missiles (from the same spell) he would reduce the total damage taken
by -2pts, not -6pts (which would be -2pts per missile). If the DM
finds this rather unsatisfactory, a possible alternative is that
harmful spells cause one point of damage less, per die, against that
character. Thus a flurry of three magic missiles does 3d4, not 3d4+3,
and a 10d6 fireball inflicts 10d6-10, rather than full damage. If the
second route is taken, Magical Toughness should be worth +3 as a Boon,
rather than +2.

Spell Resistance - The character who takes this Boon
gains the special quality of Spell Resistance (as an innate power)
equal to SR:10 +1 per character level. Thus, an 11th level character
(regardless of what his or her class levels were taken as) would have
an SR of 21.



Miscellaneous Boons
Alcohol Tolerance - The characters body metabolizes alcohol with
remarkable efficiency. The PC can drink steadily for an indefinite
period of time with no major detrimental effects. In drinking
contests, the PC with this boon will likely win against other drinkers
that don't. If both drinkers have this boon, compare their total STR
and CON to see who wins. If such rules are used, the character gains
+4 to FORT saves to resist the effects of Alcohol.

Double Jointed - Your PC can bend her body into weird
contortions - and also gain a +4 to Climb skill and Escape Artist
checks. Your limbs can bend in unusual and often disturbing (to
viewers) ways.

Hard to Kill - Your character is very tough and clings to
life with unusual tenacity. Most PC's die when their HP total drops
to -10; This boon allows the character to survive until he reaches -20
HP.

Longevity - Your characters lifespan is unusually long.
Add a +20% bonus to the characters natural lifespan. For example, a
humans lifespan is roughly 60-80 years, so Longevity adds 12-16 years
to this span.

Rapid Healing - The character regains hp and lost stat
points (from ability damage, not ability drain) at twice the normal
rate. This includes the damage from diseases and poisons.

Resistant to Diseases - The character throws off/resists all disease
organisms, even if forcibly injected with them. The character gains a
permanent +2 to all saving throws vs Diseases.

Resistant to Poisons - The characters body is exceptionally
resistant to poisons and venoms, even if forcibly injected with them.
The character gains a permanent +2 to all saving throws vs Poisons.

Toughness - The character is exceptionally tough, and
has a damage resistance (similar to a higher level Barbarian) of -/1.
This means he ignores 1pt of damage from any hit or damage he takes in
combat. This Boon can be taken multiple times; its effects stack with
itself, and with other items and class abilities that grant damage
reduction.

Additional Feat - The character possesses an extra feat slot,
which he or she may spend to purchase any extra feat the character
qualifies for. For example, a Fighter may not take “Still Spell” and
a character with less than 19 DEX would find Improved Two Weapon
Fighting somewhat less than useful (until they raised their stats to
qualify for the pre-requisites).



MENTAL BOONS

Skill/Feat Related Boons
Additional Feat - The character possesses an extra feat slot,
which he or she may spend to purchase any extra feat the character
qualifies for. For example, a Fighter may not take “Still Spell” and
a character with less than 19 DEX would find Improved Two Weapon
Fighting somewhat less than useful (until they raised their stats to
qualify for the pre-requisites).

Craft Skill - The character may select any craft skill at
Rank 4 for free. (Rank 4 does not include Stat modifiers, which
should be added by the player). This Craft skill can be increased
with skill points as the character rises in levels, as if it were a
Class skill.

Extra Class skills - The PC may select any 4 skills that are not
already class skills - these skills are now treated as class skills
from now on.
Increased Skill Points - The PC has had exceptional training by his
or her teachers, and due to that training has 8 extra skill points to
spend at first level, plus an extra +1 every level thereafter.

Language Talent - The character gains 1d4+1 languages
without having to spend Skill Points. The player *may* save these for
"Later Learning" if he wishes to do so.

Perform Skill -The character may select any Perform skill at
Rank 4 for free. (Rank 4 does not include Stat modifiers, which
should be added by the player). This knowledge skill can be increased
with skill points as the character rises in levels, as if it were a
Class skill.

Profession Skill - The character may select any profession
skill at Rank 4 for free. (Rank 4 does not include Stat modifiers,
which should be added by the player). This profession skill can be
increased with skill points as the character rises in levels, as if it
were a Class skill.

Weapon Master - This boon allows a 1st level Fighter,
Ranger, Paladin or Barbarian to gain BOTH a Weapon Focus Feat (of a
weapon of their choice) and an Exotic Weapon Proficiency (for a weapon
of their choice) free at first level. Fighters have the option of
choosing Weapon specialization as one of their free feats for any
weapon they already have Weapon Focus for, even if they are not level
4 or higher. All other classes gain a free "Weapon Focus" Feat of
their choice. This feat is an unusual case in that its much better
for warrior-classes than non-warriors - so DM’s may want to charge +5
for this feat for warrior classes, and +3 for non-warrior classes.



Social/Wealth Related Boons
Heirloom - The PC begins the game with one very costly
item, of his and the DMs devising. This item can be anything worth
500gp or less, and can be called treasure, or gambling winnings -
whatever fits the character background.

Heirloom (Magical Item) - The PC begins the game with a minor magical
item of the DM's & PC's devising. The item is usually one which will
be useful to the characters' class abilities (such as weapons or armor
for fighters and thieves, Scrolls or rings for Mages and Clerics).
The DM always has final say over the item granted. Said item
often has a family history attached to it, and will have sentimental
value over and above it's magical powers. A rough (but by no means
rock-hard) guideline is to keep the magic item at or less than
8000gp in value.

Noble Family - The PC is a younger child of a Noble family,
with 1d4+1 older brothers and sisters. The PC will gain +2 on
reactions from people who respect nobility and their titles, and may
be invited to special events commoners would be excluded from.

Property - The character owns a large home or other
residence, either due to his own wealth or through his family. This
residence can be in a city or in the countryside (GMs choice), and
could be compared to a 4 bedroom home. Optionally, the character owns
land (about 4-10 square miles) that is totally undeveloped as yet.

Wealth - The character begins the game with
1d4+1 times the normal amount of starting money, which can be spent in
any way he desires, except that the DM may (or may not) allow the PC
to use the money to buy magical items.



Stat-Related Boons
Increased Stat Each time the character selects this Boon, he
may permanently add +1 to his INT, WIS, or CHR score (not all three!).
A Character may take this Boon multiple times, for any combination of
stats (as long as he can afford it).



Miscellaneous Mental Boons
Absolute Direction - The PC always knows which way is north, and
can always re-trace a path he has followed within the past month, no
matter how faint or confusing it may be. This boon also works
underground and underwater, and adds +2 to the Navigation Skill.

Animal Empathy - This boon gives the PC a +2 bonus to
reactions vs wild animals, and a +4 bonus vs domesticated animals.
This bonus applies to Animal Handling and Animal Empathy skills as
well.

Common Sense - The PC gets one “Do-over” a session, if and
when he or she does something really stupid, or makes a really bad
call that turns out poorly for the character. The “Do-over” must be
announced as soon as possible after the disastrous result being
redone, and if the player takes too long to declare the “Do-over”, the
DM may instead veto it. If the DM does veto the use of Common Sense,
he should allow the character to use the Boon again, later in the
session (ie: the use is not lost if the DM vetoes the current chosen
“Do-over”)

Eidetic Memory - Your PC will remember the general sense of
everything he concentrates on. Also, whenever he needs to remember a
detail of something he was told, the DM will roll an INT check vs
DC:15. If the roll succeeds, the DM will tell your PC the remembered
detail. This boon adds +1 to ALL intelligence-based skills.

Empathy - Your PC has a "feel" for people. When he
first meets a person (or re-unites after a long absence), he gets a
Sense Motive skill roll at DC:15. If the roll succeeds, the PC gets
an idea of that persons' character and emotional state. A roll vs
DC:20 will tell the PC whether or not a person is lying - the truth is
not revealed, however - the PC just has a gut instinct that the person
lied.

Fashion Sense - The PC is never caught by surprise when
fashions change - she is always one step ahead of the crowd. The PC
has the ability to create a fashion statement out of the cheapest and
most non-descript materials. A PC with this boon and the Craft:
Seamstress/Tailor gains a +4 bonus to that skill, and has the
potential to be a successful fashion designer. The PC gains a +3 to
all reaction rolls in social situations where she has a chance to plan
her attire in advance.

Intuition - Your PC usually guess's right when faced
with multiple options and no logical way to choose between them. A
successful WIS roll vs DC:15, plus the number of "wrong" choices,
minus the number of "right" choices, means the DM will steer your PC
towards the "Right" choice. A natural 20 means the DM will steer your
PC to the BEST possible choice. A failed roll means the DM points
your PC to any option, determined randomly. A critical failure
(natural 1) means he points the PC to the WORST possible choice. Due
to the nature of the roll, the DM usually makes this roll, instead of
the player.

Investments - Your PC, by virtue of good luck, good
investment or hard work, has valuable investments which pay out a
monthly stipend (even though the actual capital cannot be touched).
This may be part-ownership in a business or trade consortium, or a
young noble's allowance. The income is given out from a roughly set
geographical source, which doesn't move about (unless the DMs game has
institutions like Banks in his game) - so the PC has to travel back to
the source to get his cash. If the cash is not picked up, it "stacks"
until the PC picks it up. The PC should make about 50gp per level
per month.

Peripheral Vision - The PC has a wide range of vision - when
something dangerous or interesting happens "behind your back", the DM
will roll a SPOT check vs DC:20. Success means your character saw
something, or saw enough to alert the character to the possible
danger. An alerted character cannot be Flanked for that round. The
PC can strike either his right or left flanks with no penalties, and
is only +2 to be hit from behind, not +4.

Strong Will -The PC is very hard to frighten, even in
scary or dangerous circumstances, and gains a permanent +2 on all
saving throws vs Fear or Terror.




SPECIAL BOONS

Luck-Related Boons
Jinxed - This character `steals' luck from everyone
around him, giving all affected creatures -1 to all die rolls,
including "To Hit" rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, surprise rolls
and Ability Checks. However, on the plus side, the character himself
is immune to this effect! Range is up to the DM but usually is close
to a 30ft radius. This Bane can be taken no more than 2 times (the
second time increasing the range of the Jinx to 50ft instead of 30ft).
This is considered a Boon because it is predictable, and affects your
enemies as well as your allies - so everyone suffers, except you -
which in its own way is a bonus by default.

Luck - Your character is luckier than normal (which
is measured in increments called “Luck Points”). Each session of
play, you have access to 1 luck point per time you bought this Boon,
up to a maximum set by the DM (usually 5 points) for Non-Epic
Characters (any character below 21st level), and no more than 8-10 for
even the most skilled of Epic Characters. At the beginning of each
session of play, you regain all your lost Luck points, unless the DM
decides you must wait for the end of the adventure - which can happen
when you often play in adventures that take more than 2-3 sessions to
complete.

Luck Points can be spent at any time, with some restrictions. You can
spend any number of luck points in one round as long as you do not use
more than one luck point for the same purpose in the same round. Luck
points may be spent for the following purposes:

You can re-roll a Combat roll, Initiative Roll, Saving Throw or Skill
Check on a d20, and take the best of either roll, or a 10 if the luck
d20 result is less than 10.

You can automatically confirm a Critical Hit when a Threat is rolled
in combat without having to re-roll to confirm the Critical Hit.

You can automatically stabilize yourself from bleeding to death while
at negative hit-points, and be raised from -9 hit points to 0 (zero)
hit points, simultaneously. If you have Boons or Feats that allow you
to survive at hit point totals less than -9, the Luck Point will raise
your hit points by +10, but never higher than 0 (zero)

You can invoke “Serendipity”. Serendipity is a “re-write” of the
scenery that assists your character in some task, usually through
coincidence or happenstance. For Example - The Guard to the Jail cell
you are trapped in turns out to be your Cousin, or while being chased
downstream by a covey of Hags, you fortuitously find an un-tended
canoe that helps you escape their clutches. The DM has Veto rights to
negate the serendipity - especially if it throws the entire plot of
the adventure out of balance, but if he does veto the Serendipity, you
do not lose your luck point

You can gain a “Second Wind” and heal back up to half your full hit
point total in subdual damage, automatically, or instead may heal 2
hit points of real damage per character level. This kind of simulates
“It’s not as bad as it looks.” sort of injury.

You can influence (by re-rolling once) a die roll that affects the
final fate of your character - such as a Reincarnation spell on your
dead Hero, but NOT stuff like random treasure generation - to get a
form or gender more to your liking. However, unlike the combat roll
use, you cannot default to “10" (average of the die roll) unless the
DM gives you permission. IF you do not have permission, you must
select one of the two dice rolls, even if they both result in the same
end effect.

- Luck cannot be used on Meta-Game rolls; things like determining a
monsters HP total, rolling for hp when gaining a level, or determining
magical items in a given treasure hoard. It can (in this case only)
affect the results of a Reincarnation spell, or possibly affect the
results of a Deck Of Many Things (although the DM will have the final
say on the latter item).


Outsider-Related Boons
Blessed By a Deity - The PC has been blessed with a gift - most
often access to a Domain of spells (and its associated granted power)
- by a Deity of similar alignment. The Character can cast 1 spell
(initially) from the chosen Domain as if her were a Cleric of equal
level. As the character gains experience, he may gain access to
higher level Domain spells as if his was a member of the Cleric class.
Clerics who take this Boon instead gain a Third Domain, and the
ability to cast 1 extra domain spell for each level of spells they
have access to. (ie: Can cast 2 domain spells a day, chosen from 3
Domains).

Blessed By an Elemental - The PC has been blessed by an elemental
being of great power, and has gained 10pts of Elemental resistance
from either Fire (Fire damage), Air (Lightning damage), Water (Cold
Damage) or Earth (Acid damage). This Boon can be received multiple
times; its effects stack.

Planewalker - The PC has the natural ability to travel the
planes. A character with this boon can travel from the first layer
of any outer plane (or any Prime Material world) to the Astral plane,
or vice versa. The PC may also travel from any Prime world to the
Ethereal plane or vice versa. Note that this power does NOT provide
any means of survival on the target plane, so the PC had better come
prepared! This boon can be used up to 3 times per day and requires
one round of concentration and a successful DC:15 Concentration skill
check to activate.

Reanimation - This boon is a lesser version of
Resurrection - since it provides the PC with a limited form of
(skewed) immortality. The PC has "9 lives", and whenever the PC
dies, he reanimates within 1d10 minutes of his death, into the nearest
similar dead body. The order of "preference" of bodies to reanimate
are: Same Race, Same type (Such as Humanoid, Animal etc), least
damaged PC race, Any Animal. Gender is irrelevant, as is age -
although a person cannot rise as someone so old they will soon die
again. Physical stats are rolled on 4d6 (take three highest), and
add +1pt for every 4 levels of the character.

This means he might come back as one of his slain foes, or allied
party members! If his spirit is trapped (via the Soul Bind
spell for example), he cannot reanimate until his spirit is freed. If
there are no dead bodies to reanimate into within a reasonable
distance, the DM can also rule that the PC cannot reincarnate
until something dies "within range" that provides a suitable body.

There is a 10 minute grace period between the time of the
death/reanimation and the spending of a "Life" - so if a PCs paranoid
friends cut down their re-animated friend, he won't waste a life until
he's had a few minutes to tell them who he is.

Reincarnation - This boon is a lesser form of
Resurrection, since it provides a character with a limited form
of immortality. The PC has “9 lives”, and upon the character’s
death, he or she will be reincarnated (as per the spell) within 1d10
minutes. Otherwise this boon is identical to Reanimation.

Resurrection - This special Boon must be used with care - used
improperly it can give a character a form of immortality
(which is why its so useful in solo games too!). When the
character dies, he is resurrected into a new body after being dead for
1d10 minutes, even if his bodily remains are disintigrated or
dissolved by oozes and acids. You have 9 "Lives" with this Boon
- when they are used up, if you die again, you stay dead. You
ressurect as yourself (not into a new body, like Reanimation
Boon). The DM may rule that if your spirit is trapped (like by the
Soul Bind spell) you cannot resurrect until your spirit is freed. The
DM may use this boon as “Incredible luck used to cheat death”
rather than magical or divine aid if he wishes - a la “Nobody could
have survived that!”



Miscellaneous Special Boons
Danger Sense - If the PC is in danger (known or unknown),
the DM should make a Sense Motive roll vs DC:15 for the character.
Success means the character gets a prickly feeling on the back of
their neck and realizes something is wrong. A DC:20 on the roll gives
a little detail as to the nature of the danger, and also prevents the
character from being flanked for the first round of combat, should an
ambush occur within 1 minute of sensing the danger.. This can provide
a non-magical method of "detection" if the PC feels his WIS roll is
reliable enough to trust in this fashion. A successful roll means you
are not caught flat-footed in an ambush.

Innate Magical Spell - The PC has a natural aptitude for magic, and
can cast a spell up to 3/day. Usually the spell in question should
be chosen from the Sorceror & Wizard charts in the PHB, but the DM
might allow the character to choose from the Bard, Cleric, or Druid
lists if he chooses. The DM has Veto rights over any particular
spell. A level 0 spell costs +1, a level 1 spell costs +2, a level 2
spell costs +3 and so on, although the DM should maintain careful and
STRICT limitations on characters who want (or possess) the innate
ability to cast spells above level 3. The highest level spell that
should ever be allowed is maxed out at level 4, which costs +5.

Landed Noble - As "Noble", but the PC is actually the Heir
of a Noble Family (the DM must first grant permission for this). If
so, the PC gains +4 on reactions from people who respect nobility and
titles (including all Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate skill checks).
To offset this, the PCs parents might require the PC to wed a
particular person, or the PC might be plagued by attempts to steal his
or her birthright. The PC (or his family) will own moderate tracts of
land. If either this, Noble Family, or Property is rolled again, the
character (or family) owns LARGE tracts of land, and instead of having
this Boon stack, should take the "Investments" Boon instead.

Mage Sight - The PC is quite sensitive to magical auras.
He may cast (as an innate supernatural power) the spell Detect Magic,
up to Three times per day, and Identify 1/day by sight (Casting time
1rd). The knowledge gained is intuitive in nature, rather than
analytical, but still just as accurate.

Shapechanger - The character has the natural ability to
change between his or her normal form to one other form, chosen when
this Boon is selected. The alternate form can be of any standard PC
race in the PHB, or any Medium-sized (or smaller) Animal, of either
gender and appearance. This is similar to a Druid's Wildshape
ability, with the possible exception that the PC gains the methods of
breathing and movement etc... that the body switched into does. The
PC may stay in the alternate form for as long as he or she desires.
Also, for every 4 levels the character gains, he may add one new
alternate form (subject to the DM's ruling). As a side-effect, the
character gains the "Shapechanger" subtype.

Snatching - This is the power to find (almost) any
desired item from an alternate world and "snatch" it across the
dimensions to your PC. This power cannot be used to travel across
dimensions in any way. The items snatched do not come from the PC's
world, but rather from some nameless alternate; thus a snatcher can
get items for himself, but can never intentionally take them away from
some specific other person. Snatching requires a skill roll to
succeed, and regardless of success or failure, can only be attempted
3/day.

The act of "snatching" takes one full round
and requires the PC to make grasping and reaching motions with his
hand(s). If the PC cannot make these motions, the DC of the snatching
attempt rises by +2. The Character can improve this Boon by taking
the Feat "Skill Focus: Snatching", which permanently adds +2 to
his attempts to Snatch. Snatching is always a class skill, and is
based on INT.

DC Item
10 Common garment or tool (Breeches or a candle, rope or a torch,
a knife or a small shovel.
15 An expensive garment, a shield, a sword, or a somewhat complex
device like theives tools or Holy water. A small handful of
copper or silver coins, a few small gems (10gp to 50gp ea).
20 A rare garment (furs etc...), a suit of light armor, a small
handful of gold coins, a few valuable gems (100gp ea).
25 A suit of medium armor, a handful of platinum coins, a single
valuable gem (worth 500gp to 1000gp), a gun or some other
foreign high-tech weapon.
30 A suit of Heavy armor, a single valuable gem worth 5000gp,
(GM Option: A magical item)

Magical items can usually not be gained in this fashion, and
neither can Hi-Tech items such as guns, jewels or gems (save the most
crude or low quality), unless the DM allows such uses. A character
with Snatching may never "Take 10" or "Take 20". A failed snatching
attempt causes 1d6 points of subdual damage per 5pts the die roll
failed by.


The “Evil Eye” - The character with this boon is not
necessarily Evil in alignment (indeed, it is quite possible for a Good
character to have this Boon, although it would be rather uncommon in
such individuals). A person “blessed” with the gift of the Evil Eye
can cast Doom 3/day, and Bestow Curse 1/week (both by a silent act of
will, although in all other ways it resembles a still, silent Doom
spell), and may if he or she chooses, attempt to lay Dire Curses if
horribly wronged (as per guidelines in Ravenloft) or lay a Dying Curse
(as per guidelines in Ravenloft and Dragonlance books). As with all
Special Boons, the DM has final say (and Veto power) over the power of
any Dire or Dying curse a player may choose to try and inflict on
another being.



PHYSICAL BANES

Appearance Related Banes
Unattractive - The character has a displeasing appearance,
and is considered unattractive by those that find the members of the
characters sex appealing. The character suffers -3 to Bluff and
Diplomacy skill checks against people that find the character
unattractive.

Ugly - The character is considered ugly by those
that find the members of the characters sex appealing. The character
suffers -1 to Bluff and Diplomacy skill checks (and +1 to intimidate
skill checks) vs all members of any race that finds the characters
race appealing, and -6 to Bluff and Diplomacy skill checks against
people that find the character unattractive. The -1 and -6 penalties
do not stack - use only the -6 bonus if both apply.

Very Ugly - The character is considered Very Ugly by
those that find the members of the characters sex appealing. The
character suffers -2 to Bluff and Diplomacy skill checks (and +2 to
Intimidate skill checks) vs all members of any race that finds the
characters race appealing, and -8 to Bluff and Diplomacy skill checks
against people that find the character unattractive. The -2 and -8
penalties do not stack - use only the -8 bonus if both apply.

Monstrously Hideous - The character is considered a monstrous
abomination by those that find members of the characters sex
appealing. The character suffers -3 to Bluff and Diplomacy skill
checks (and +3 to Intimidate skill checks) vs all members of any race
that finds the characters race appealing, and -10 to Bluff and
Diplomacy skill checks against people that find the character
unattractive. The -3 and -10 penalties do not stack - use only the
-10 bonus if both apply.

Ugly Scar - The PC has a scar somewhere visible on his
or her body that `looks horrible', and gives a -2 penalty to all
reaction rolls where the scar can be seen. If this Bane is rolled
more than once, treat the subsequent rolls as "unattractive
appearance".

Disturbing Voice - Your PC's voice is naturally unpleasant.
You may choose any explanation for this bane - the voice could be
raspy, high-pitched and squeaky, sound nasal - whatever. This causes
a -2 to reaction rolls where your PC's voice would be heard, including
all attempts at ettiquette, Fast-talking, and oratory. A PC cannot
possess this bane AND the boon "Attractive Voice" - they are each
others' opposites.



Decreased Senses Related Banes
Color Blind - Your PC cannot see any colors at all. This
is usually a nuisance, but will provide difficulties in any situation
requiring color identification (gem-buying, Heraldry, telling Gold
coins from Silver ones etc...). Professional Merchant skills (NWP's)
are at -2, including all attempts at appraisal. The PC suffers -2 to
all shadowing/tracking skills.

Night Blindness - Your PC has very poor night vision, and
suffers -2 to all skills and combat rolls in areas of poor light (such
as torch-light or a full moon) and -4 (or worse) to the above rolls in
anything worse than bright torch-light (such as candle-light or the
dark of the moon. If an enemy is gaining a miss chance due to
concealment based on darkness (such as in a Darkness spell), the enemy
is considered fully concealed (miss chance 50%) when being targeted by
your character.

Poor Hearing - The PC is not deaf, but does suffer some
hearing loss. he is at -4 to all Listen checks, and is at -2 to any
skill proficiency that requires you to hear to be effective, such as
Fast-Talk, Diplomacy, Seduction, etc... An Ear-trumpet will give a +2
to the roll, and a Cure Deafness will remove this bane. If this Bane
is rolled twice, the character is totally deaf, and can communicate
only through sign language, innuendo (in the form of gestures and body
language) or by magical or psionic telepathy.

Deaf - The character is totally, 100% deaf, and
cannot hear ANYTHING. He gains “Gesture” as a bonus language, and Lip
Reading (if such a skill or language is available in the campaign),
and can be literate in languages - for reading only. Deaf PC's get
a +3 to Bluff or Innuendo and Sense Motive, when used to send
"messages" by gestures and hand signs. Without careful training (or
prior ability to hear) he cannot even correctly pronounce words -
since he has never heard HOW to pronounce words the way they should
be. For other effects of Deafness, refer to the DMG and PHB for
details.

Poor Vision - The PC is very nearsighted, and cannot see
clearly at range. All range penalties for missile weapons and spells
"to Hit" are doubled. The character also suffers -2 on all spot
rolls, and on search rolls to detect secret doors and traps unless
corrective lenses or glasses are worn.

Blind - The character is 100% blind, and cannot see
ANYTHING. He gains “Listen” as a class skill for all classes he
possesses, and may be literate in any language he knows. However,
since he cannot see the written words, he cannot read - so unless he
was able to see prior to going blind, a blind character will probably
be unable to write (not knowing how to shape the letters since he’s
never seen a letter or writing). Scrolls are useless items to persons
who are blind. For other effects of being Blind, refer to the DMG and
PHB for details.

Mute - Your PC cannot speak - all your
communications with other players must be in writing or sign language.
If the PC is not literate, he CANNOT read/write - he can only
communicate through gesture. Mute PC's get a +3 to Bluff or Innuendo
and Sense Motive, when used to send "messages" by gestures and hand
signs. Innuendo is always a class skill for a Mute PC.



Stat Related Banes
Decreased Stat Each time the character selects this Bane, he
must permanently subtract -1 to his STR, DEX, or CON score (not all
three!). A Character may take this Bane multiple times, for any
combination of stats (up to the DM’s discretion).



Disabilities
One Eye - You have only one good eye - you may wear a
glass eye or use an eyepatch. Your PC suffers -1 to hit in melee
combat, and -3 with anything involving missile weapons, thrown
objects, or driving a vehicle faster than a horse and buggy. The PC
has -1 to all reaction rolls due to his “deformity”.

One Hand - Your character has either been born without
a hand, or lost it due to combat or an injury during his childhood.
The character is obviously restricted in some ways - without an
effective prosthesis firing a longbow is virtually impossible, for
example. Most skills that require two hands to do, are either
impossible, or cause the character to suffer a -4 penalty to his skill
check. The character can use a shield if it is rigged to be used
without a hand to grip it (which costs about 2x the cost of a normal
shield). The character can also usually purchase or have made a crude
prosthesis (usually a hook) to replace his hand. If used in combat, a
prosthetic hook is a one-handed light weapon that does 1d3 damage (x2
critical), and can be disarmed. Your PC has -1 to reaction rolls due
to his “deformity”.

Lame - Your PC has a bad leg. His movement is
reduced by 10ft (from 30ft to 20ft) or by 5ft (from 20ft to 15ft).
You suffer a -2 penalty to any roll involving running or walking, and
suffer a -1 penalty to all melee weapon attacks. Damage rolls are
unaffected by this bane.

One Arm or Leg - One Arm is similar to “One Hand” except that
the character cannot use a shield, and has a more restricted use of
his limbs (although the -4 penalty does not increase). One Leg is
similar to “Lame” except that without crutches or a prosthetic leg
(usually a “Peg-leg”), walking is impossible, and the character can
only crawl. A character with one leg suffers -4 to all Ride skill
checks (at least) and -2 to all attacks made from the back of a horse.
If a person with One Leg wears a Peg-leg, he is instead considered
Lame until he loses his Peg-leg (a peg-leg can be disarmed by an enemy
using the disarm maneuver, and it can also be knocked free in a fall
or during grappling if it is not tied on).

Paraplegic - The character cannot move or feel his legs
in any way, either due to a birth defect, or more commonly due to
severe lower spine trauma from injuries or wounds. Because of this,
he cannot walk at all, nor swim (except in a crude way, and even then
at -8 to skill). The character must be carried or use a wheelchair or
similar device to move about, without using magic or high-tech
devices. If a paraplegic takes part in combat, he suffers -4 to any
roll involving movement, and -2 to all melee or ranged attacks, as
well as -2 to REF saves). In real life many Paraplegics cannot feel
when their legs are injured, and don’t see or notice wounds until they
are already severely injured - in the interest of making this playable
as a bane, I have ignored that trait - its already strong enough.
Note that even though a paraplegic might not feel an injury, he still
takes damage when his legs are hurt!


Weight Related Banes
Skinny - Your PC is noticeably and extremely
underweight. This isn’t the normal way a person is slender, but
rather extreme skinniness - where bones show strongly and the
character looks both underfed, and possibly unhealthy. A character
who is skinny will figure weight normally and subtract one-third to
one-half. Skinny PC's cannot have a CON higher than 14, and cannot
have a reaction bonus higher than
+4.

Overweight - Your PC is somewhat heavy for his or her
race - not fat, but what modern folk might call Husky or Full Figured.
Overweight characters figure weight normally, and add 30%. This extra
weight is counted as extra encumbrance, and carries a -1 penalty to
reactions (including Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate skill checks) in
health-conscious societies or in areas where food is scarce.
Overweight characters gain +2 to Swimming skill checks.

Fat - Your PC is considered Fat for his race.
Fat characters figure weight normally - and increase it by 60%. This
gives -2 on all reaction rolls (including Bluff, Diplomacy, and
Intimidate Skill checks) and counts as extra encumbrance. Normal
clothes and armor will not fit you - you will have to pay extra or
make your own gear. The PC is at -2 to the Disguise skill, and gets
+4 to Swimming skill checks

Obese - Your PC is considered Obese for his race.
Obese characters figure weight normally, and increase it by 90% to
120% (8+1d4 x10%). This gives -3 on all reaction rolls (including
Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate Skill checks) and counts as extra
encumbrance. Normal clothes and armor will not fit you - you will
have to pay extra or make your own gear. The PC is at -4 to the
Disguise skill, and gets +6 to Swimming skill checks


Age Related Banes
Aged - Your PC is far older than the normal
beginning age of Player Characters. Apply the stat modifiers for OLD
age (from the DMG), and place the characters age somewhere within the
“Old” age category (players choice). The PC begins the game at Old
age on the Age Tables (approximately 50 for humans). In some cultures
the elderly have great respect shown them, and can gain a +2 on
reaction rolls, but in others they are seen as senile, and suffer a -2
on reaction rolls. Unlike most Banes, this one can be negated by
Youth-restoring magicks such as Potions of Longevity or Elixers of
Youth.

Frail - Your PC is extremely frail, and suffers
double the normal STR, DEX, and CON stat penalties for exceptional age
or youth. In addition to this penalty, the character is also rather
physically frail, and suffers +1pt of real damage from any blow caused
by a Blunt weapon, and +2pts of subdual damage from any non-lethal
attack. In addtion, critical hits caused by blunt weapons (including
most unarmed attacks) are increased by one multiple (such as from x2
to x3).

Youthful - Your character is far younger than the
normal beginning age of Player Characters. Your character is around
age 14-15 (in human years, or an equivalent amount in years for
non-human races) and suffers a -3 to reaction rolls (including Bluff,
Diplomacy, and Intimidate rolls) except when trying to pass oneself
off as a child instead of as an adult. People may like your PC, but
not fully respect her, and your PC may be barred from bars,
war-parties, guild memberships or social clubs due to her age. A
young character also suffers all age-related Stat modifications, which
are typically -1 to STR and CON for anyone ages 12-15 in human years.
Unlike most banes, this one dissappears once the PC reaches her age of
majority (as determined by her culture and the campaign world) -
typically the minimum “Adult” age in years for her race.


Miscellaneous Physical Banes
Addiction - The character is addicted to either a drug
or alcohol. Alcoholism is inexpensive, incapacitating, and (usually)
legal in most areas. Under normal circumstances, an alcoholic can
confine his drinking to the evenings, and therefore be able to
function (for game purposes) normally. However, any time an alcoholic
beverage (or drug) is present, the PC must make a Will save vs DC:20
(DC:15 if the binge would be self-destructive, like while in a
dungeon) or go on a 2-12 hour binge, followed by a hangover at least
twice as long (during which time all Stats are at a -2 penalty, and
all skills based on INT, WIS, or CHR are at an additional -1 for a net
penalty of -2 when combined with the -2 stat penalty from the line
above). A binge usually costs the character 10gp per level per binge
(alchohol) or 50gp per level per binge (drugs).

- Alcoholics suffer mood swings when drunk, and can go from extreme
friendliness to extreme hostility in seconds. The PC may talk too
freely, or make other mistakes in judgement. An alcoholic must make a
CON roll vs DC:12 yearly; failure means he loses 1pt off of any stat
(determined randomly). This loss is permanent if without access to
magical aid. Being addicted to a Drug is very much like being
addicted to alcohol, except that drug use is usually expensive and
illegal.

Easily Intoxicated - The PC can't hold his liquor, and gets drunk
or intoxicated 3x as fast as a normal PC would. In addition, he or
she suffers -2 to save vs against ingested drugs. PCs with this Bane
tend to have horrible hangovers. DC's of poisons and drugs are
increased by +2 for this character only.

Slow Healer - The PC heals at one half the normal rate of
healing. Magical healing still works normally upon the character.

Susceptible to Diseases - The PC cannot throw off/resist disease
organisms as well as an average character. The character suffers a
permanent -2 to all saving throws vs Diseases.

Susceptible to Poisons - The PC's body is exceptionally vulnerable to
poisons and venoms, even if antidotes are administered. The character
Suffers a permanent -2 to all saving throws vs Poisons.

Sterile - The PC cannot father children (if
male), or cannot bear children (if female) due to reproductive
problems. This doesn't mean the PC cannot enjoy sex! It simply means
the PC will never become pregnant (if Female) or cause a Pregnancy (if
Male). This may seem like a “Free” bane, but in many societies and
cultures being sterile is a serious disadvantage - such as a when a
typical fantasy Kingdom has its King or Queen die with no Heir. Also,
in societies where children are seen as a sign of status and wealth, a
Sterile adult (who presumably has no children of his or her own) will
suffer -1 to reaction rolls.



MENTAL BANES

Skill/Feat Related Banes
Illiterate - You begin the game not knowing how to read
or write in any language. You may become partially literate by
spending 2 skill points when you level up at a future date, and fully
literate by spending 4 skill points. Once you become literate, this
bane can be deleted.

Innumerate - You have no "feel" for numbers and cannot do
any math in your head; you must count on your fingers and toes. You
cannot count above 20, and even then you're not sure you didn't make a
mistake or two. You must painstakingly count your change from any
merchant. Also, the PC may not guess how many coins are in a pile or
in a bag - their estimates will always be hopelessly wrong.

Reduced Class Skills - The PC must select two class skills. These
skills are now permanently considered cross class for that character.
This Bane may not be taken more than once, unless the DM allows.

Reduced Feats - The character begins play with 1 feat less
than normal. This Bane cannot be taken more than once.

Uneducated - The PC has suffered from very poor tutelage
and thus begins the game with HALF his normal allotment of skill
points (not including INT bonuses), and -1 skill point less each level
he gains. For example, a first level fighter would gain 4 skill
points (plus INT bonus) instead of 8, and only gain 1 skill point per
level thereafter (instead of 2 skill points).



Social/Wealth Related Banes
Long term Enemy - Your PC has a foe that has dogged him
through his youth, and now follows him into adulthood. The DM and PC
should get together and create a fun, challenging foe. Until the PC
deals with the foe, it will be a constant thorn in his side. To keep
the bane challenging, the foe should gain levels at a rate similar to
the PC.

Reduced Status (Serf) - The PC is a member of a lower caste than
other folk, and gains +1 to reaction rolls with members of his own
caste (Serfs), -1 with normal folk, and -2 or more to reaction rolls
with rich and wealthy folk.

Reduced Status (Slave) - (Note that the PC must thus start the game as
a member of an enslaving country or culture). This means he is either
still a slave when the game begins, or an escaped slave - a wanted
criminal, with no rights. If captured, the best he can hope for is a
near-lethal whipping - the worst is death! Most folk will shun or
ignore a slave who approaches them for any reason, giving the PC a
reaction penalty of -3. The PC can reach freedom if he can reach a
country where slavery is illegal - but if he ever returns to the
slave-society, this bane re-surfaces.

Reduced Status (Criminal) - The character is infamous due to some
illegal act of his own or his mentors'. The PC gains a +2 to
reactions with all those who commit such deeds, but a -2 on reactions
with honest folk. If caught, he faces jail time (around 2d6 months at
the least) or worse, depending on his crimes.

Reduced Starting Cash - The PC has a greatly reduced amount of
starting money - HALF the normal amount. If this Bane is taken
twice the PC is Impoverished. If such is the case, the PC starts with
NO money whatsoever - all he owns are the clothes on his back! These
clothes are typically a peasant’s outfit - or better clothes damaged
so badly they are worth little more than a peasants rags. The
character may NOT choose to own Noble clothing, and then sell his
clothes for his starting money!!!


Stat Related Banes
Decreased Stat - Each time the character selects this Bane,
he must permanently subtract -1 from his INT, WIS, or CHR score (not
all three!). A Character may take this Bane multiple times, for any
combination of stats (up to the DM’s Discretion)


Miscellaneous Mental Banes
Addiction - The character is addicted to either a drug
or alcohol. Alcoholism is inexpensive, incapacitating, and (usually)
legal in most areas. Under normal circumstances, an alcoholic can
confine his drinking to the evenings, and therefore be able to
function (for game purposes) normally. However, any time an alcoholic
beverage (or drug) is present, the PC must make a Will save vs DC:20
(DC:15 if the binge would be self-destructive, like while in a
dungeon) or go on a 2-12 hour binge, followed by a hangover at least
twice as long (during which time all Stats are at a -2 penalty, and
all skills based on INT, WIS, or CHR are at an additional -1 for a net
penalty of -2 when combined with the -2 stat penalty from the line
above). A binge usually costs the character 10gp per level per binge
(alchohol) or 50gp per level per binge (drugs).

- Alcoholics suffer mood swings when drunk, and can go from extreme
friendliness to extreme hostility in seconds. The PC may talk too
freely, or make other mistakes in judgement. An alcoholic must make a
CON roll vs DC:12 yearly; failure means he loses 1pt off of any stat
(determined randomly). This loss is permanent if without access to
magical aid. Being addicted to a Drug is very much like being
addicted to alcohol, except that drug use is usually expensive and
illegal.

Berserker - Your PC tends to lose control of herself
under stress, making frenzied attacks against the cause of the stress
(as the PC sees it). Anytime you are hit more than 3 times in one
round you must roll Will save vs DC:20 or else go berserk. When
berserking you attack at -2 to hit, but gain one extra attack per
melee round. You also suffer a -4 AC penalty and cannot opt to fight
defensively. You feel no injuries and suffer no ill effects from them
until the battle is over and the berserk state ends. The PC can try
to end the berserk state whenever he downs or kills a foe (rolling
Will vs DC:15); failure means he continues to berserk for another
round. If still berserking when no enemies are left, the PC will
attack friends and allies!

Chummy - Your PC works well within a group and will always
seek out company rather than be alone. When alone, the PC will be
unhappy and distracted, suffering a -2 penalty to all mental skills,
spells, psionics and INT or WIS based skills.

Combat Paralysis - Combat Paralysis gives the PC a permanent
initiative penalty of -2. If surprised, the character is unable to
act for 1 extra round, and is considered Flat-footed for the entire
time, until the surprise round and extra round are over.

Curiosity - Your PC is naturally inquisitive (nosy), and
when presented with an interesting item or situation, must roll WIS vs
DC:12 to avoid examining it, even if you know it will be dangerous.
The PC rationalizes his curiosity to others. The boon "Common Sense"
doesn't help - you know you're taking a risk, but you've just got to
know....

Greed - Your PC lusts after wealth. Anytime riches
are offered - as payment for fair work, gains from an adventure,
spoils of crime, or just plain bait, you must make a Will save vs
DC:15 to avoid the temptation. This roll is modified by the amount of
wealth offerred (relative to your current level of wealth). Small
amounts will not tempt a wealthy PC much (he will have up to +5 to his
saving throw), but a poor PC could have a penalty as large as -5 to
their Will save. If you took this Bane at the -2 level, the base
Will save DC is 20 instead of 15. If you took this Bane at the -3
level, the base Will save is 25 instead of 15.

Impulsiveness - Your PC hates talk and debate - she prefers
Action! She will put her two cents in when others want to stop and
discuss something - then quickly ignore them and do something -
anything - to provide interest. To wait and ponder a problem requires
a Will roll vs DC:15 to DC:20, depending on how boring the wait is,
and how long she has had to wait around for something to happen.
Note that this doesn't mean the PC will go jump into a pit - but she
may sneak off down a hallway to investigate etc...

Insomniac - The PC has difficulty falling asleep for
extended periods of time; roll WIS vs DC:12 each night - success
results in sleep, while failure means the PC loses 2 hours of sleep
and functions at -1 during the next day's activities. A natural 1
means the PC gets NO sleep that night and functions at -3 for the next
entire day. Once a period of sleeplessness starts, it lasts 3d6 days
before normal sleeping habits resume.

Nightmares - Your PC is tormented each night by horrible
nightmares occuring each time she sleeps. Sometimes they are so
harrowing they affect the PC's efficiency upon awakening. Roll Will
save vs DC:15 every morning. A success means there is no ill effect,
but a failure results in a -2 to all skill and stat checks for the
rest of the day. Spellcasters who fail the WIS check regain -1 spell
per spell level.) Example: If you had 5/3/1 spells (normally) you
would be able to cast 4/2/0 on a day after a harrowing nightmare.
This Bane is worth -2 to spellcasters, and -1 to members of other
classes.

On The Edge - Sometimes your PC doesn't care whether he
lives or dies. He is not actively suicidal, but he will take
unreasonable risks in the face of mortal danger. When the PC faces a
life-threatening situation (such as staring down a gang of thugs while
armed only with a toothbrush), he must make a WIS roll vs DC:12 to
avoid attacking. Most sensible people will avoid you (-2 on reactions
once this bane becomes apparent to others), and lowlives will mistake
your disregard for your own life as bravery, giving +2 on reactions.

Phobia - Your PC is unreasonably afraid of something
- exactly what is up to you and the DM. You can master your fear by
making a WILL Save vs DC:15 but even with success, the fear persists
and the roll must be repeated every 10-30 minutes. If your PC fails
the WILL save, he will refuse to get near the object of his fear, and
will panic if forced, doing weird and freaky things to avoid it - like
jumping off a cliff... The Will save DC increases to DC:20 at the
-2pt level, and DC:25 at the -3pt level.

Some sample phobias are: Crowds, Death and the
dead, Enclosed spaces, Insects, Magic, The number 13, Open spaces,
Darkness, Dirt, Heights, Loud Noises (like Thunder), Oceans & water,
Reptiles, and Weapons & Blood.

Sleepwalker - Your PC walks in his sleep. This is usually
just annoying or embarassing (unless you fall down the stairs), but
can be very dangerous if you happen to sleepwalk in "enemy territory"
- like a dungeon. On any given night, your PC will sleepwalk on a
failed Will save vs DC:15, and will awake after 5d6 minutes of walking
unless someone wakes him earlier. If your PC happens to trip and fall
or otherwise be awoken suddenly, he will be stunned for 1d10 rounds.
While sleepwalking your PC is in a hypnogogic state, giving a -2 to
save vs any Charm-related magic or psionic skill rolls.

Stuttering - Your PC suffers a stammer or speech
impediment, receiving a -2 on all reaction rolls where conversation is
required. Certain skills are impossible (such as Bluff, Innuendo and
Diplomacy), and PC's with this bane must make a DC:20 Concentration
check to correctly cast a spell with a verbal component - if they
fail, they have a 25% spell failure chance for that spell. This
Bane is worth -1pt for non spellcasters, and -2 for all spellcasters
that have verbal spells. A psion for example, does not use verbal
components and so would only gain -1pt for this Bane.

Truthfullness - Your PC hates to lie, and is very poor at
deception. To lie by omission requires a WIS save vs DC:15, and to
actually tell a lie requires a WIS roll vs DC:20. A failed roll means
your PC either blurts out the truth or stumbles so much his lie is
obvious. He also has -4 to Bluff, and -2 to Diplomacy skill checks.

Weak Will - The PC has -1 to save vs all WILL saves.
The PC also has difficulty asserting himself forcefully, thus gaining
him a -1 penalty to Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate skill checks in
situations where this trait is obvious.



SPECIAL BANES
Cursed - The PC or his family has been cursed by a
High-Level spellcaster. The nature of the Curse should be designed by
the DM, with input from the PC's player. The DM has final say over
the PC's Curse and its detriments, although a great story idea could
be the PC's attempt to get the curse removed! Unlike Cursed by a
Deity, Curses of this type can often (but not always) be removed with
a Break Enchantment spell (but usually not a simple Remove Curse
spell, unless cast by a very high level caster).

Cursed by a Deity - The PC or his family has been cursed by a
Deity. The nature of the Curse should be designed by the DM, with
input from the PC's player. The DM has final say over the PC's Curse
and its detriments, although a great story idea could be the PC's
attempt to get the curse removed! Most Curses imposed by a Deity
CANNOT be removed with the Remove Curse or Break Enchantment spells,
and require stronger magic - often in the form of a quest or powerful
aid from a spellcaster or outsider. This Bane is show as being worth
-3 to -5 because the effects of any given curse can vary greatly. The
DM should judge how much it will affect the character, and then decide
on how much the curse is worth.

Evil Twin / Arch Enemy - Your PC has an "evil twin" who looks and
sounds like the PC - and who occasionally uses a similar name to that
of the PC. PC's rarely meet their evil twin, but they DO hear about
them, usually when they're taking the blame for something they didn't
do. Evil twins can be mistaken for a split personality. The evil
twin will have the same stats, skills, and profession as the PC, and
appears in an adventure on a 5 or less (rolled on a d20). The only
visual and social difference (in many cases) between an evil twin and
the original is their specific gear, and their alignment.

- The Alternate version of this Bane is Arch-Enemy. You have a
powerful enemy from your past that hates you, or considers you his
nemesis. This enemy will dog your trail your entire life (until dealt
with in a permanent manner), causing serious problems for your
character - including (but not limited to) attempting to kill your
characters loved ones, harming or maiming your character, or
destroying things and institutions your character cares about.
Consider Batman and the Joker, and Superman and Lex Luthor for
examples of good Arch Enemies.


Infernal Attention - The Character (or his family) has attracted
the unwanted attention of a being from the lower planes, who will
prove to be a constant thorn in the side of the character and his
allies. If the PC is evil, the attention could be from the Upper
planes, at the GMs option. The GM should design a suitable NPC to
interact and harass the character - but this should rarely be an NPC
who is involved in COMBAT with the PC... it is more a roleplaying
Bane. On the other hand, the PC may decide that violence is the only
way to end the Infernal Attention.

Magic Dead - A character who is magic dead cannot ever
become an arcane spellcaster of any kind (and perhaps not a Psionic
either, depending on GM decisions). If the PC is already an arcane
spellcaster, he suffers a permanent -10% penalty to earned experience.
This Bane also interferes with the use of triggered magical items
(such as wands, staves and rods), but not constant or use-activated
items (such as armor and weapons, cloaks and such). Anytime a
character has to purposely activate a power in an item, he rolls a
d20; on a 1 or a 20, the attempt fails. If this occurs the charge
used is wasted, or the use per day/week etc is used (but in neither
case is any magical effect created). Note that Use activated items
(such as a ring of Protection +1) that also have activated powers
(such as firing a magic missile 1/day) can be used as per normal for
the base power - but when the triggered power is activated, they must
roll d20 to see if it is wasted.

Quirk - The character has an odd SIGNIFICANT
personality quirk, which must be roleplayed. Some possible examples
of a personality quirk are: Homosexuality, Constant fussing over your
hair and appearance, Compulsive Spending, Compulsive Gambling,
Miserliness, Neat Freak, Necrophiliac, Cannibalism, etc... - The DM
and player should come up with something the PLAYER feels comfortable
playing. The point value (-1 to -3) should represent both how strong
the impulse is and how freaky or disabling it is. Neat Freak might be
worth -1 in most cases, but Cannibalism should be worth at Least -2,
and probably -3.

Unluck - Your PC just has bad luck. Once per gaming
session the DM will arbitrarily and maliciously make something go
wrong for your PC. You may fail a vital die roll, an enemy might show
up against all odds, and so on. If the plot of the adventure requires
that something bad happen to a character, it will likely happen to you
first. The DM will never kill your character outright, but can
inconvenience him. If this bane is taken at the -5pt level, the PC
has REALLY bad luck and the DM can screw him TWICE a session!

[Neon Fox]

... the DM will set an "Acceptable" level of Boons/Banes for the
players - such as "No one may have more than a net +2 bonus, or
less than -2."

You might also want a limit on the total for Banes, to avoid the
nearsighted masochistic one-legged kleptomaniac cowardly
overweight albino midget effect. :)

Hard to Kill - Your character is very tough and clings to
life with unusual tenacity. Most PC's die when their HP total
drops to -10; This boon allows the character to survive until
he reaches -20 HP.

Wow, that's one of those Advantages, I mean Boons, that I
can't really see anyone *not* taking. to -15, maybe?

Longevity- Your characters lifespan is unusually long. Add a
+20% bonus to the characters natural lifespan. For example,
a humans lifespan is roughly 60-80 years, so Longevity adds
12-16 years to this span.

Shouldn't he also have his various aging thresholds raised, so
he doesn't hit middle age as early and so on? Maybe delay
adulthood by 1 year, middle age, old, and venerable by 10% of
total each?

Toughness - The character is exceptionally tough...This Boon
can be taken multiple times; its effects stack with itself, and
with other items and class abilities that grant damage
reduction.

Again, that's awfully beefy; I'd suggest limiting it to 2 or 3 levels
at most.

Animal Empathy

There's already the Animal Friend feat, but I guess if you
*really* want someone who's good with animals...

I'm sure there are other minor tweaks I missed, because at this
point I started skimming, but overall it looks good. There's only
really one problem: the GURPS people are likely to be unpleased
if you keep using their Ad and Disad descriptions--Eidetic Memory
is for some reason jumping out at me, but there are lots of cases.

I also have a sneaking suspicion that it might be easier to tweak
GURPS to feel like D&D rather than the other way around, but
YMMV.

--Neon Fox

[Skyblind]

Post by Neon Fox

... the DM will set an "Acceptable" level of Boons/Banes for the
players - such as "No one may have more than a net +2 bonus, or
less than -2."

You might also want a limit on the total for Banes, to avoid the
nearsighted masochistic one-legged kleptomaniac cowardly
overweight albino midget effect. :)

I agree 100% - I think I said in the article that the DM had to keep
careful control over the boon/bane thing so that he didn't end up with
a super-cripple who could kill a tarassque - but only from his
intensive care ward. If I didn't include this codicil, I had better
or anyone who uses this will have an unstoppable army of
super-cripples decimating their dungeons...lol!

Post by Neon Fox

Hard to Kill - Your character is very tough and clings to
life with unusual tenacity. Most PC's die when their HP total
drops to -10; This boon allows the character to survive until
he reaches -20 HP.

Wow, that's one of those Advantages, I mean Boons, that I
can't really see anyone *not* taking. to -15, maybe?

In my games I make anyone who wants any boons or banes at all (taking
none is still an option) write a 2-4 page background for their
character explaining why they have these advantages. Now some are
easy to explain - like "I was born ugly" or "I'm just very tough" -
but still, they have to pass the "This makes sense for my character"
test. If the DM decides they don't make sense, they don't get the
boon or bane, period.

And being able to stay alive at -11 to -20 isn't a big deal if you
remember you drop unconscious at 0hp or less. Even if you are alive
at -19hp You're still out of action, and still need a lot of help to
recover before dying - but you just have a bigger buffer zone before
your PC dies. Its good - but not a game breaker.

Post by Neon Fox

Longevity- Your characters lifespan is unusually long. Add a
+20% bonus to the characters natural lifespan. For example,
a humans lifespan is roughly 60-80 years, so Longevity adds
12-16 years to this span.

Shouldn't he also have his various aging thresholds raised, so
he doesn't hit middle age as early and so on? Maybe delay
adulthood by 1 year, middle age, old, and venerable by 10% of
total each?

Yeah he should - I kind of thought this was a no-brainer and assumed
everyone else would too. I'll amend the text of my master document to
include that explaination

Post by Neon Fox

Toughness - The character is exceptionally tough...This Boon
can be taken multiple times; its effects stack with itself, and
with other items and class abilities that grant damage
reduction.

Again, that's awfully beefy; I'd suggest limiting it to 2 or 3 levels
at most.

Its not that good, even though it looks good. Remember, most
campaigns are "recommended" to have a net total of boons and banes
equalling +2 - and I believe Toughness /1 is +2. To get DR/2 would
leave you at +4, Requiring you to take at least -2 in banes to be
"legal".

Oh - and as to limiting the total to 2 or 3 levels at most - good
idea. I figured most DMs would freak if someone came to them with a
Toughness 5 brute, and automatically disallow it, but some DMs don't
have the guts to say "NO" to their players - so setting a practical
limit in the document of 2-3 levels sounds like a good idea.

Post by Neon Fox

Animal Empathy

There's already the Animal Friend feat, but I guess if you
*really* want someone who's good with animals...

I envisioned this as the ultra-sickening sweet sort of thing like
snow-white having songbirds land on her hand, and rabbits come and rub
up against her legs etc.... like in the disney movies - for those that
like really neauseatingly sweet nature lovers.

Post by Neon Fox
I'm sure there are other minor tweaks I missed, because at this
point I started skimming, but overall it looks good. There's only
really one problem: the GURPS people are likely to be unpleased
if you keep using their Ad and Disad descriptions--Eidetic Memory
is for some reason jumping out at me, but there are lots of cases.

Hrm... I hope not. I've played GURPS for years, and love their
system (even if D&D is my favorite RPG) but I'll have to check my
books - if they are "ripped off" I'll either have to change the
wording or change the Boon or both. I don't want to be a plaigarist
here. Thanks for the info.

Post by Neon Fox
I also have a sneaking suspicion that it might be easier to tweak
GURPS to feel like D&D rather than the other way around, but
YMMV.

Nope - I've tried and it doesn't work. GURPS is IMO the absolute best
game out there for Gritty, Hardcore fantasy and modern (or even
science fiction - like Traveller) RPGs - but for High fantasy, like
where a wizard can blow away 100 baddies with a dozen fireballs etc...
and a single warrior can take on the same number of foes in battle -
there's no better system IMO than D&D (In any of its incarnations)

Post by Neon Fox
--Neon Fox

Thanks for your comments - I'll be sure to incorporate them ASAP!
Skyblind

[Peter Knutsen]

Post by Skyblind
I agree 100% - I think I said in the article that the DM had to keep
careful control over the boon/bane thing so that he didn't end up with

A need for GM control is indicative of shoddy rules design.

Post by Skyblind
a super-cripple who could kill a tarassque - but only from his
intensive care ward. If I didn't include this codicil, I had better
or anyone who uses this will have an unstoppable army of
super-cripples decimating their dungeons...lol!

The correct warning, for you to give people, is that you do
not believe that your system is well designed. (And without
having read it, only skimmed Fox's commentary, I suspect
that your judgement in this matter is quite sound).

[Skyblind]

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 02:43:20 +0100, Peter Knutsen

Post by Peter Knutsen

Post by Skyblind
I agree 100% - I think I said in the article that the DM had to keep
careful control over the boon/bane thing so that he didn't end up with

A need for GM control is indicative of shoddy rules design.

I don't agree with that statement, Peter - Any game system inherently
is flawed in that it cannot address every possible permutation of
powers and combinations without being a several thousand page tome.
For an example of how a game can be run roughshod over if GM control
is lax or non-existant, simply look to the HERO system. Now, HERO is
a darned good game system, IMO - a bit too complicated for my taste as
a GM (but I love to play it), but shoddy rules design for Hero? I'd
bet I could find at large number of people who would debate that
statement hotly!

Post by Peter Knutsen

Post by Skyblind
a super-cripple who could kill a tarassque - but only from his
intensive care ward. If I didn't include this codicil, I had better
or anyone who uses this will have an unstoppable army of
super-cripples decimating their dungeons...lol!

The correct warning, for you to give people, is that you do
not believe that your system is well designed. (And without
having read it, only skimmed Fox's commentary, I suspect
that your judgement in this matter is quite sound).

Well, I do believe it is well designed, at least in its core concept.
The reason I posted it here is to get input - and Neon Fox was rather
polite and helpful with his (or her) suggestions and advice. Since
you didn't bother to even read the document, and only skim Neon Fox's
comments, your opinion may be based on mistaken data. If you have the
time, please read the document, and then post your opinion - whether
it be a flame, a comment, advice, or praise.

Skyblind

[Peter Knutsen]

Post by Skyblind

Post by Peter Knutsen
A need for GM control is indicative of shoddy rules design.

I don't agree with that statement, Peter - Any game system inherently
is flawed in that it cannot address every possible permutation of
powers and combinations without being a several thousand page tome.

Wrong. Core D&D3 does not require even a minimum of "GM
opinion" to prevent abusive optimization, because abusive
degrees of optimization is simply not possible, as the
system is thoroughly designed. The GM can simply give his
players the core books and tell them that they can do
anything that falls inside the rules.

Post by Skyblind
For an example of how a game can be run roughshod over if GM control
is lax or non-existant, simply look to the HERO system. Now, HERO is
a darned good game system, IMO - a bit too complicated for my taste as
a GM (but I love to play it), but shoddy rules design for Hero? I'd
bet I could find at large number of people who would debate that
statement hotly!

I'm not into this democracy shit. History has proven, beyond
*any* doubt, that there is very little correlation between
the number of skulls inside which a belief resides and the
correctness of said belief.

Post by Skyblind

Post by Peter Knutsen
The correct warning, for you to give people, is that you do
not believe that your system is well designed. (And without
having read it, only skimmed Fox's commentary, I suspect
that your judgement in this matter is quite sound).

Well, I do believe it is well designed, at least in its core concept.

No you don't. If you *had* confidence in your abilities as a
rules engineer, you would not have wasted a single byte on
saying that the GM would have to excercise "discretion".

Post by Skyblind
The reason I posted it here is to get input - and Neon Fox was rather
polite and helpful with his (or her) suggestions and advice. Since

Neon Fox pointed out several cases where you had not though
things through, and managed to produce "Boons" which
*loudly* failed the "but would't everybody take this"
criterion. Based on Neon Fox finding such atrocious flaws in
your material, I decided not to read any of it.

Besides, as I explain in my reply to Neon Fox, it is simply
a mistake to try to graft any kind of advantage/disadvantage
system onto D&D3, because it is not the type of system which
is suited for it.

Post by Skyblind
you didn't bother to even read the document, and only skim Neon Fox's
comments, your opinion may be based on mistaken data. If you have the
time, please read the document, and then post your opinion - whether
it be a flame, a comment, advice, or praise.

As I said, what you are trying to do is a mistake. You can
only get detailed character creation in a system that was
built, from the get-go, with that in mind.

This would be a good time for me to do some more arrogant
posing, but as I made a mistake very similar to yours, five
years ago, I won't.

[Kaos]

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 18:58:33 +0100, Peter Knutsen

Post by Peter Knutsen

Post by Skyblind

Post by Peter Knutsen
A need for GM control is indicative of shoddy rules design.

I don't agree with that statement, Peter - Any game system inherently
is flawed in that it cannot address every possible permutation of
powers and combinations without being a several thousand page tome.

Wrong. Core D&D3 does not require even a minimum of "GM
opinion" to prevent abusive optimization, because abusive
degrees of optimization is simply not possible, as the
system is thoroughly designed. The GM can simply give his
players the core books and tell them that they can do
anything that falls inside the rules.

The core books permit swapping out class features in exchange for
others. Note, however, that permission is *explicitly* contingent on
DM opinion.

[l***@freemail.hu]

Post by Peter Knutsen

Post by Skyblind

Post by Peter Knutsen
A need for GM control is indicative of shoddy rules design.

I don't agree with that statement, Peter - Any game system

inherently

Post by Peter Knutsen

Post by Skyblind
is flawed in that it cannot address every possible permutation of
powers and combinations without being a several thousand page tome.

Wrong. Core D&D3 does not require even a minimum of "GM
opinion" to prevent abusive optimization, because abusive
degrees of optimization is simply not possible, as the
system is thoroughly designed. The GM can simply give his
players the core books and tell them that they can do
anything that falls inside the rules.

Neat! My character pays for a Polymorph Any Object to be cast on him by
a level 15 Wizard (1200 gp, PHB page 129), turning him into an ape.
Next, he pays a level 15 Druid to cast Maximized Awaken on him. (2450
gp) Then he gets the Polymorph dismissed. He now has 18 Int and +3
Charisma.

So you would allow this, then?

Let's look at a simpler example. Level 3 fighter with Int 10 pays a
level 15 Wizard to just Polymorph Any Object him into a Stone Giant.
Since they're both mammals and their Int is the same, the spell is
permanent. You would, of course, allow this?

Or how about the magic item cost thread we just finished discussing?
Clearly, GM opinion is needed to price new magical items.

Laszlo

[Symbol]

Post by Skyblind

Post by Peter Knutsen

Post by Skyblind

Post by Peter Knutsen
A need for GM control is indicative of shoddy rules design.

I don't agree with that statement, Peter - Any game system

inherently

Post by Peter Knutsen

Post by Skyblind
is flawed in that it cannot address every possible permutation of
powers and combinations without being a several thousand page tome.

Wrong. Core D&D3 does not require even a minimum of "GM
opinion" to prevent abusive optimization, because abusive
degrees of optimization is simply not possible, as the
system is thoroughly designed. The GM can simply give his
players the core books and tell them that they can do
anything that falls inside the rules.

Neat! My character pays for a Polymorph Any Object to be cast on him by
a level 15 Wizard (1200 gp, PHB page 129), turning him into an ape.
Next, he pays a level 15 Druid to cast Maximized Awaken on him. (2450
gp) Then he gets the Polymorph dismissed. He now has 18 Int and +3
Charisma.
So you would allow this, then?

Note: Not interested in discussing the wider argument. Just your specific
points.

No he doesn't. Once polymorphed into an ape he has an ape's intelligence
and loses the ability to carry out his strategy. If he has an agent acting
on his behalf the Sage has ruled that you cannot maximize an Awaken spell
and even if you could, removing the polymorph means you are no longer an
awakened animal and shouldn't derive any benefit anyway.

Post by Skyblind
Let's look at a simpler example. Level 3 fighter with Int 10 pays a
level 15 Wizard to just Polymorph Any Object him into a Stone Giant.
Since they're both mammals and their Int is the same, the spell is
permanent. You would, of course, allow this?

Assuming there was a wizard for hire available I would. There are dozens
of potential pitfalls with this plan. So much so I could safely predict
that none of my players would want to do this.

Post by Skyblind
Or how about the magic item cost thread we just finished discussing?
Clearly, GM opinion is needed to price new magical items.

Not at all. Some players can be left to work out reasonable costs
themselves (In some groups they may need to ask for a nod and a wink from
the group or DM as appropriate). The magical item creation rules aren't
broken, they are just easily abused with incompetent or malicious
handling.

[l***@freemail.hu]

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Neat! My character pays for a Polymorph Any Object to be cast on him by
a level 15 Wizard (1200 gp, PHB page 129), turning him into an ape.
Next, he pays a level 15 Druid to cast Maximized Awaken on him. (2450
gp) Then he gets the Polymorph dismissed. He now has 18 Int and +3
Charisma.
So you would allow this, then?

Note: Not interested in discussing the wider argument. Just your specific
points.

OK

Post by Symbol
No he doesn't. Once polymorphed into an ape he has an ape's

intelligence

Post by Symbol
and loses the ability to carry out his strategy.

Obviously, he askes his party to do the rest for him.

Post by Symbol
If he has an agent acting on his behalf the Sage has ruled
that you cannot maximize an Awaken spell

I did not know this. Can you point me to this ruling, please?

Post by Symbol
and even if you could, removing the polymorph means you are no longer an
awakened animal and shouldn't derive any benefit anyway.

This is a common misconception. It's like saying that if you take 20
damage from a Fireball and then Shapechange into a fire elemental, you
should heal that damage, since fire damage is no longer able to affect
you.

Your point would be valid if Awaken was a Permanent spell. But it's
not. It's Instantaneous, which means there's no longering magic effect
at all, and what could or could not be affected by Awaken is not an
issue after the spell has already been cast.

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Let's look at a simpler example. Level 3 fighter with Int 10 pays a
level 15 Wizard to just Polymorph Any Object him into a Stone Giant.
Since they're both mammals and their Int is the same, the spell is
permanent. You would, of course, allow this?

Assuming there was a wizard for hire available, I would. There are

dozens

Post by Symbol
of potential pitfalls with this plan. So much so I could safely predict
that none of my players would want to do this.

Then your players are kind of stupid, or lack imagination, or are
unwilling to engage in what is clearly rules abuse. At that level, no
opponent would be able to Dispel a PaO. What other pitfalls do you have
in mind?

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Or how about the magic item cost thread we just finished

discussing?

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Clearly, GM opinion is needed to price new magical items.

Not at all. Some players can be left to work out reasonable costs
themselves (In some groups they may need to ask for a nod and a wink from
the group or DM as appropriate). The magical item creation rules aren't
broken, they are just easily abused with incompetent or malicious
handling.

Exactly. And DM arbitration is needed to prevent "malicious handling".
Which was my point.

Laszlo

[Symbol]

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Symbol
If he has an agent acting on his behalf the Sage has ruled
that you cannot maximize an Awaken spell

I did not know this. Can you point me to this ruling, please?

Reported to this group about two years ago (googling for sage, awaken and
maximize should do it). I don't remember if it ever made its way into the
3.0 FAQs.

You shouldn't need official confirmation to this conclusion though.
Allowing awaken to be maximized might be a legitimate intepretation of the
rules but is also abusive and since an alternative interpretation is
possible you should be lead in that direction.

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Symbol
and even if you could, removing the polymorph means you are no longer

an

Post by Symbol
awakened animal and shouldn't derive any benefit anyway.

This is a common misconception. It's like saying that if you take 20
damage from a Fireball and then Shapechange into a fire elemental, you
should heal that damage, since fire damage is no longer able to affect
you.

It's nothing like that at all. Awaken grants "human like sentience" to
animals and trees and the stat boosts represents the mechanics of that
change. Humans already *have* human like sentience.

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Your point would be valid if Awaken was a Permanent spell. But it's
not. It's Instantaneous, which means there's no longering magic effect
at all,

Said effect is human like sentience, something that humans already have.
It makes no sense to allow the mechanic that represents the change to an
*animal* to continue.

You could actually legitimately argue that awaken wouldn't grant modifiers
to a polymorphed, sapient creature in the first place.

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Let's look at a simpler example. Level 3 fighter with Int 10 pays a
level 15 Wizard to just Polymorph Any Object him into a Stone

Giant.

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Since they're both mammals and their Int is the same, the spell is
permanent. You would, of course, allow this?

Assuming there was a wizard for hire available, I would. There are

dozens

Post by Symbol
of potential pitfalls with this plan. So much so I could safely

predict

Post by Symbol
that none of my players would want to do this.

Then your players are kind of stupid, or lack imagination, or are
unwilling to engage in what is clearly rules abuse. At that level, no
opponent would be able to Dispel a PaO.

You are making the classical error of assuming everyone games like you.
Never threatening characters with opponents who clearly out match them
(which is usually combined with never threatening characters with
opponents who are little more than speed bumps). I reject your premise but
even if I didn't you are assuming the DM wouldn't now be offering
challenges at the appropriate ECL.

Post by l***@freemail.hu
What other pitfalls do you have
in mind?

Some campaign specific, some practical.

1) Stone giants are not welcome in most civilizations in my game.
2) Giant creatures won't fit into places the other characters will travel
to. That includes most buildings, most underground walkways, travel by
boat etc. Unless special provision was made the character could end up
sitting out entire sessions. It doesn't really apply IMC but imagine the
difficulty caused when the party wizard aquires teleport too.
3) Giant creatures have significant difficulty getting their hands on
quality gear and polymorphed characters risk losing everything when the
spell is eventually removed or they encounter a dead magic zone.

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Or how about the magic item cost thread we just finished

discussing?

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Clearly, GM opinion is needed to price new magical items.

Not at all. Some players can be left to work out reasonable costs
themselves (In some groups they may need to ask for a nod and a wink

from

Post by Symbol
the group or DM as appropriate). The magical item creation rules

aren't

Post by Symbol
broken, they are just easily abused with incompetent or malicious
handling.

Exactly. And DM arbitration is needed to prevent "malicious handling".

No it isn't. If you handle the MI rules maliciously you are not following
them. You're essentially arguing that if you break the rules they aren't
balanced. Duh!

I like to game the system as much as the next person but part of the MI
rules is the guideline that items prices should be compared to other items
and adjusted appropriately. If you don't do that you are breaking the
rules.

[l***@freemail.hu]

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Symbol
If he has an agent acting on his behalf the Sage has ruled
that you cannot maximize an Awaken spell

I did not know this. Can you point me to this ruling, please?

Reported to this group about two years ago (googling for sage, awaken and
maximize should do it). I don't remember if it ever made its way into the
3.0 FAQs.

Thanks, found it.

Post by Symbol
You shouldn't need official confirmation to this conclusion though.
Allowing awaken to be maximized might be a legitimate intepretation of the
rules but is also abusive and since an alternative interpretation is
possible you should be lead in that direction.

No alternative interpretation is possible. The Sage's answer, while
official, is more errata than clarification. The description of the
Awaken spell and the description of the Maximize Spell feat combine
into _one_ possible airtight interpretation. And it's not the Sage's.
The comparison to Summon Monster does not begin to hold water.

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Symbol
and even if you could, removing the polymorph means you are no longer

an

Post by Symbol
awakened animal and shouldn't derive any benefit anyway.

This is a common misconception. It's like saying that if you take 20
damage from a Fireball and then Shapechange into a fire elemental, you
should heal that damage, since fire damage is no longer able to affect
you.

It's nothing like that at all. Awaken grants "human like sentience" to
animals and trees and the stat boosts represents the mechanics of that
change. Humans already *have* human like sentience.

So? Who cares? The Calm Emotions spell "can stop raging creatures from
fighting or joyous ones from reveling. Creatures so affected cannot
take violent actions (...)" Are you saying that since a professional
assassin who's planning to kill someone is already calm, the spell
wouldn't have any effect on him?

Don't confuse the crunch with the fluff. Or if you do, then realize
that that is your _decision_ to do so, as a DM, and not the only way to
interpret the spells themselves.

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Your point would be valid if Awaken was a Permanent spell. But it's
not. It's Instantaneous, which means there's no longering magic effect
at all,

Said effect is human like sentience, something that humans already have.
It makes no sense to allow the mechanic that represents the change to an
*animal* to continue.

See above.

Post by Symbol
You could actually legitimately argue that awaken wouldn't grant modifiers
to a polymorphed, sapient creature in the first place.

No, you could not argue that at all. You could _decree_ it, as a DM,
and it would be a very sane decree. I've decreed it myself. But the
Core Rules do not support that argument (except Rule 0, of course).

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Let's look at a simpler example. Level 3 fighter with Int 10 pays a
level 15 Wizard to just Polymorph Any Object him into a Stone

Giant.

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Since they're both mammals and their Int is the same, the spell is
permanent. You would, of course, allow this?

Assuming there was a wizard for hire available, I would. There are

dozens

Post by Symbol
of potential pitfalls with this plan. So much so I could safely

predict

Post by Symbol
that none of my players would want to do this.

Then your players are kind of stupid, or lack imagination, or are
unwilling to engage in what is clearly rules abuse. At that level, no
opponent would be able to Dispel a PaO.

You are making the classical error of assuming everyone games like you.

Not really.

Post by Symbol
Never threatening characters with opponents who clearly out match them
(which is usually combined with never threatening characters with
opponents who are little more than speed bumps). I reject your

premise but

Post by Symbol
even if I didn't you are assuming the DM wouldn't now be offering
challenges at the appropriate ECL.

Um, appropriate for the CR 8 Stone Giant, or the CR 3 party?

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
What other pitfalls do you have
in mind?

Some campaign specific, some practical.

<snip>

Sure, okay. I'm not saying it's a good tactic in all situations. I am,
however, saying that getting a +4 LA race for free (well, a thousand
gold or so) is broken.

Post by Symbol
I like to game the system as much as the next person but part of the MI
rules is the guideline that items prices should be compared to other items
and adjusted appropriately. If you don't do that you are breaking the
rules.

Really? Adjusted "appropriately" according to who's definition of
"appropriate"?

Laszlo

[Kaos]

Post by Skyblind

Post by Symbol
You shouldn't need official confirmation to this conclusion though.
Allowing awaken to be maximized might be a legitimate intepretation

of the

Post by Symbol
rules but is also abusive and since an alternative interpretation is
possible you should be lead in that direction.

No alternative interpretation is possible. The Sage's answer, while
official, is more errata than clarification. The description of the
Awaken spell and the description of the Maximize Spell feat combine
into _one_ possible airtight interpretation.

Go read the old flamewar again.
If you still feel that way, feel free to respawn it.

Post by Skyblind

Post by Symbol
It's nothing like that at all. Awaken grants "human like sentience"

to

Post by Symbol
animals and trees and the stat boosts represents the mechanics of

that

Post by Symbol
change. Humans already *have* human like sentience.

So? Who cares? The Calm Emotions spell "can stop raging creatures from
fighting or joyous ones from reveling. Creatures so affected cannot
take violent actions (...)" Are you saying that since a professional
assassin who's planning to kill someone is already calm, the spell
wouldn't have any effect on him?

I doubt the professional assassin is truly calm. He's just damn good
at not letting his emotions get in the way of his thinking.
(That, BTW, would be demonstrated mechanically by the will save.)

Post by Skyblind

Post by Symbol
You could actually legitimately argue that awaken wouldn't grant

modifiers

Post by Symbol
to a polymorphed, sapient creature in the first place.

No, you could not argue that at all.

You certainly could. Laszlo might not *buy* the argument, but it can
definately be made.

[l***@freemail.hu]

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind

Post by Symbol
You shouldn't need official confirmation to this conclusion

though.

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind

Post by Symbol
Allowing awaken to be maximized might be a legitimate

intepretation

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind
of the

Post by Symbol
rules but is also abusive and since an alternative interpretation is
possible you should be lead in that direction.

No alternative interpretation is possible. The Sage's answer, while
official, is more errata than clarification. The description of the
Awaken spell and the description of the Maximize Spell feat combine
into _one_ possible airtight interpretation.

Go read the old flamewar again.
If you still feel that way, feel free to respawn it.

I don't really want to.

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind
So? Who cares? The Calm Emotions spell "can stop raging creatures from
fighting or joyous ones from reveling. Creatures so affected cannot
take violent actions (...)" Are you saying that since a professional
assassin who's planning to kill someone is already calm, the spell
wouldn't have any effect on him?

I doubt the professional assassin is truly calm. He's just damn good
at not letting his emotions get in the way of his thinking.
(That, BTW, would be demonstrated mechanically by the will save.)

A monk then. I'm pretty sure a Monk could fight calmly.

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind

Post by Symbol
You could actually legitimately argue that awaken wouldn't grant

modifiers

Post by Symbol
to a polymorphed, sapient creature in the first place.

No, you could not argue that at all.

You certainly could. Laszlo might not *buy* the argument, but it can
definately be made.

Okay. Let's put it this way. You couldn't _support_ your argument with
anything from the rulebooks.

Laszlo

[Bradd W. Szonye]

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Okay. Let's put it this way. You couldn't _support_ your argument with
anything from the rulebooks.

Like you'd know anything about that, Mr Juice.

[Nikolas Landauer]

Post by Bradd W. Szonye

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Okay. Let's put it this way. You couldn't _support_ your
argument with anything from the rulebooks.

Like you'd know anything about that, Mr Juice.

And if he'd actually read the thread, he'd find that people did exactly
that in it.

[Kaos]

Post by Symbol

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind

Post by Symbol
You shouldn't need official confirmation to this conclusion

though.

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind

Post by Symbol
Allowing awaken to be maximized might be a legitimate

intepretation

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind
of the

Post by Symbol
rules but is also abusive and since an alternative interpretation

is

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind

Post by Symbol
possible you should be lead in that direction.

No alternative interpretation is possible. The Sage's answer, while
official, is more errata than clarification. The description of the
Awaken spell and the description of the Maximize Spell feat combine
into _one_ possible airtight interpretation.

Go read the old flamewar again.
If you still feel that way, feel free to respawn it.

I don't really want to.

From your actions, the only part you don't seem to want to do is read
the original; because you're making a fine attempt at respawning it.

[l***@freemail.hu]

Post by Kaos

Post by Symbol

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind

Post by Symbol
You shouldn't need official confirmation to this conclusion

though.

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind

Post by Symbol
Allowing awaken to be maximized might be a legitimate

intepretation

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind
of the

Post by Symbol
rules but is also abusive and since an alternative

interpretation

Post by Kaos

Post by Symbol
is

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind

Post by Symbol
possible you should be lead in that direction.

No alternative interpretation is possible. The Sage's answer, while
official, is more errata than clarification. The description of the
Awaken spell and the description of the Maximize Spell feat combine
into _one_ possible airtight interpretation.

Go read the old flamewar again.
If you still feel that way, feel free to respawn it.

I don't really want to.

From your actions, the only part you don't seem to want to do is read
the original;

This is true. I didn't read it, and don't particularly want to. It's
long, and it irritates me.

Post by Kaos
because you're making a fine attempt at respawning it.

Well, you know how it takes two people to have an argument... I'm
apparently not the only one interested in respawning it, not by a long
shot.

But if everyone is bored of the topic, we can leave it be, I have no
objections.

Laszlo

[Kaos]

Post by Symbol

Post by Kaos

Post by Symbol

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind

Post by Symbol
You shouldn't need official confirmation to this conclusion

though.

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind

Post by Symbol
Allowing awaken to be maximized might be a legitimate

intepretation

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind
of the

Post by Symbol
rules but is also abusive and since an alternative

interpretation

Post by Kaos

Post by Symbol
is

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind

Post by Symbol
possible you should be lead in that direction.

No alternative interpretation is possible. The Sage's answer,

while

Post by Kaos

Post by Symbol

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind
official, is more errata than clarification. The description of

the

Post by Kaos

Post by Symbol

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind
Awaken spell and the description of the Maximize Spell feat

combine

Post by Kaos

Post by Symbol

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind
into _one_ possible airtight interpretation.

Go read the old flamewar again.
If you still feel that way, feel free to respawn it.

I don't really want to.

From your actions, the only part you don't seem to want to do is read
the original;

This is true. I didn't read it, and don't particularly want to. It's
long, and it irritates me.

Post by Kaos
because you're making a fine attempt at respawning it.

Well, you know how it takes two people to have an argument... I'm
apparently not the only one interested in respawning it, not by a long
shot.

And I have no problems with that in itself. After all, we already
have the Obligatory Alignment Threads, which are just respawns of a
different neverending argument.

It's your refusal to actually look at what has already been said on
the subject *first* that I'm objecting to.

[Nockermensch]

Post by Symbol

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind

Post by Symbol
You shouldn't need official confirmation to this conclusion

though.

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind

Post by Symbol
Allowing awaken to be maximized might be a legitimate

intepretation

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind
of the

Post by Symbol
rules but is also abusive and since an alternative

interpretation

Post by Symbol
is

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind

Post by Symbol
possible you should be lead in that direction.

No alternative interpretation is possible. The Sage's answer, while
official, is more errata than clarification. The description of the
Awaken spell and the description of the Maximize Spell feat

combine

Post by Symbol

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind
into _one_ possible airtight interpretation.

Go read the old flamewar again.
If you still feel that way, feel free to respawn it.

I don't really want to.

Spoilsport.

Post by Symbol

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind
So? Who cares? The Calm Emotions spell "can stop raging creatures

from

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind
fighting or joyous ones from reveling. Creatures so affected cannot
take violent actions (...)" Are you saying that since a

professional

Post by Symbol

Post by Kaos

Post by Skyblind
assassin who's planning to kill someone is already calm, the spell
wouldn't have any effect on him?

I doubt the professional assassin is truly calm. He's just damn good
at not letting his emotions get in the way of his thinking.
(That, BTW, would be demonstrated mechanically by the will save.)

A monk then. I'm pretty sure a Monk could fight calmly.

Sure thing. Monks have great will saves.

[Symbol]

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Symbol
If he has an agent acting on his behalf the Sage has ruled
that you cannot maximize an Awaken spell

I did not know this. Can you point me to this ruling, please?

Reported to this group about two years ago (googling for sage, awaken

and

Post by Symbol
maximize should do it). I don't remember if it ever made its way into

the

Post by Symbol
3.0 FAQs.

Thanks, found it.

No problem.

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Symbol
You shouldn't need official confirmation to this conclusion though.
Allowing awaken to be maximized might be a legitimate intepretation

of the

Post by Symbol
rules but is also abusive and since an alternative interpretation is
possible you should be lead in that direction.

No alternative interpretation is possible.

Of course there is. Did you see the size of the thread arguing that very
thing?

Post by l***@freemail.hu
The Sage's answer, while
official, is more errata than clarification.

Back when it originally came up that was my position too but I've changed
my mind since then. Partly because I'm sick and tired of people assuming
the blatantly abusive interpretations when others exist (especially in
world builder
threads) or applying such rulings inconsistently or with absurd
Legalese(1) but mainly because the spirit of the rule is as much a part of
the
*correct* interpretation as anything else.

(1) See Loren Davis' arguments shortly before he stopped posting here and
exactly what that leads to.

Post by l***@freemail.hu
The description of the
Awaken spell and the description of the Maximize Spell feat combine
into _one_ possible airtight interpretation. And it's not the Sage's.

Nonsense. An interpretation that has "human like sentience" as the effect
and the stat boosts as the game world consequence of that effect is
perfectly valid. Your point is only true *if* you ignore the description
of the Awaken spell and you claim to be using it despite dismissing it as
fluff.

Post by l***@freemail.hu
The comparison to Summon Monster does not begin to hold water.

It wasn't the best answer but only because there was a better way of doing
it that wouldn't need a dissertation length argument to back it up.

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Symbol
It's nothing like that at all. Awaken grants "human like sentience"

to

Post by Symbol
animals and trees and the stat boosts represents the mechanics of

that

Post by Symbol
change. Humans already *have* human like sentience.

So? Who cares? The Calm Emotions spell "can stop raging creatures from
fighting or joyous ones from reveling. Creatures so affected cannot
take violent actions (...)" Are you saying that since a professional
assassin who's planning to kill someone is already calm, the spell
wouldn't have any effect on him?

Don't be absurd. That isn't a valid comparison and ignores the next
sentence. "Creatures so affected cannot take violent action". Rules don't
exist in isolation.

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Don't confuse the crunch with the fluff.

Just because the sentence doesn't describe a mechanic does not mean it has
no bearing on interpreting the effect of the spell. That is a *critical*
error.

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Symbol
You could actually legitimately argue that awaken wouldn't grant

modifiers

Post by Symbol
to a polymorphed, sapient creature in the first place.

No, you could not argue that at all. You could _decree_ it, as a DM,
and it would be a very sane decree. I've decreed it myself. But the
Core Rules do not support that argument (except Rule 0, of course).

Nonsense.

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Then your players are kind of stupid, or lack imagination, or are
unwilling to engage in what is clearly rules abuse. At that level,

no

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
opponent would be able to Dispel a PaO.

You are making the classical error of assuming everyone games like

you.
Not really.

In that one respect, yes you are. You claimed that at the level in
question nobody will be able to Dispel the polymorph and that includes the
assumption that every enemy encounter will be of a certain or maximum
ability. In my game becomming a Giant on a permanent basis would attract
people who don't like Giants.

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Symbol
Never threatening characters with opponents who clearly out match

them

Post by Symbol
(which is usually combined with never threatening characters with
opponents who are little more than speed bumps). I reject your

premise but

Post by Symbol
even if I didn't you are assuming the DM wouldn't now be offering
challenges at the appropriate ECL.

Um, appropriate for the CR 8 Stone Giant, or the CR 3 party?

If the party wants to get in the way of the Dwarven Giant hunters that is
their decision (and the polymorphed character isn't CR 8 either - notice
those 14 racial HD you don't get and the special qualities?).

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
What other pitfalls do you have
in mind?

Some campaign specific, some practical.

<snip>
Sure, okay. I'm not saying it's a good tactic in all situations. I am,
however, saying that getting a +4 LA race for free (well, a thousand
gold or so) is broken.

You *aren't* getting a +4 LA race for a thousand+ gold (almost half of a
3rd level characters expected wealth by the way). The polymorph spell
makes it quite clear about what you actually get. Since it's a spell as
vulnerable as any other it also dictates what you've got to lose.

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Symbol
I like to game the system as much as the next person but part of the

MI

Post by Symbol
rules is the guideline that items prices should be compared to other

items

Post by Symbol
and adjusted appropriately. If you don't do that you are breaking the
rules.

Really? Adjusted "appropriately" according to who's definition of
"appropriate"?

According to the guidelines laid out in the books and the plethora of
items offered for comparison.

[l***@freemail.hu]

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Symbol
It's nothing like that at all. Awaken grants "human like

sentience"

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
to

Post by Symbol
animals and trees and the stat boosts represents the mechanics of

that

Post by Symbol
change. Humans already *have* human like sentience.

So? Who cares? The Calm Emotions spell "can stop raging creatures from
fighting or joyous ones from reveling. Creatures so affected cannot
take violent actions (...)" Are you saying that since a

professional

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
assassin who's planning to kill someone is already calm, the spell
wouldn't have any effect on him?

Don't be absurd. That isn't a valid comparison and ignores the next
sentence. "Creatures so affected cannot take violent action". Rules don't
exist in isolation.

Much like your interpretation of Awaken ignores the next sentence,
which says exactly what stat bonuses it grants, I guess.

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Um, appropriate for the CR 8 Stone Giant, or the CR 3 party?

If the party wants to get in the way of the Dwarven Giant hunters that is
their decision (and the polymorphed character isn't CR 8 either - notice
those 14 racial HD you don't get and the special qualities?).

True. On the other hand, you get to keep your fighter feats.

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
<snip>
Sure, okay. I'm not saying it's a good tactic in all situations. I am,
however, saying that getting a +4 LA race for free (well, a

thousand

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
gold or so) is broken.

You *aren't* getting a +4 LA race for a thousand+ gold (almost half of a
3rd level characters expected wealth by the way). The polymorph spell
makes it quite clear about what you actually get. Since it's a spell as
vulnerable as any other it also dictates what you've got to lose.

Okay, so you get a permanent super-Enlarge Person, a permanent
super-Bull's Strength, and a permanent super-Bear's Endurance, and a
permanent natural armor bonus for 1000 gp or so.

Phew, for a moment there, I really thought it was unbalanced.

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Really? Adjusted "appropriately" according to who's definition of
"appropriate"?

According to the guidelines laid out in the books and the plethora of
items offered for comparison.

Well, a Ring of Cure Light Wounds at will costs 1800 gp according to
the book (no similar item to compare it to, so we're left with the
table). I guess you think that's balanced, too. If that's the case, I
suppose I can't argue with that.

Laszlo

[Bradd W. Szonye]

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Well, a Ring of Cure Light Wounds at will costs 1800 gp according to
the book (no similar item to compare it to, so we're left with the
table) ....

You're still shitting on the letter and the spirit of the rules here.
For example, you clearly /still/ do not understand what "estimate"
means.

[l***@freemail.hu]

Post by Bradd W. Szonye

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Well, a Ring of Cure Light Wounds at will costs 1800 gp according to
the book (no similar item to compare it to, so we're left with the
table) ....

You're still shitting on the letter and the spirit of the rules here.
For example, you clearly /still/ do not understand what "estimate"
means.

Clearly, you have no idea what we're discussing. I was merely pointing
out that DM interdiction _is_ necessary in D&D 3.5, because there are
rules that are "fuzzy" or... to use your word "estimates". Thus, D&D is
_not_ an abuse-free system, and DM decisions are necessary. THAT WAS MY
ENTIRE POINT.

I don't know why you are consistently hostile to me, nor do I greatly
care. I would advise you, though, to pick your fights more judiciously,
because this was pretty ridiculous.

Laszlo

[Symbol]

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Bradd W. Szonye

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Well, a Ring of Cure Light Wounds at will costs 1800 gp according

to

Post by Bradd W. Szonye

Post by l***@freemail.hu
the book (no similar item to compare it to, so we're left with the
table) ....

You're still shitting on the letter and the spirit of the rules here.
For example, you clearly /still/ do not understand what "estimate"
means.

Clearly, you have no idea what we're discussing. I was merely pointing
out that DM interdiction _is_ necessary in D&D 3.5, because there are
rules that are "fuzzy" or... to use your word "estimates". Thus, D&D is
_not_ an abuse-free system, and DM decisions are necessary. THAT WAS MY
ENTIRE POINT.
I don't know why you are consistently hostile to me, nor do I greatly
care. I would advise you, though, to pick your fights more judiciously,
because this was pretty ridiculous.

No, Laszlo, it wasn't. You are arguing that following the rules produces a
result that it clearly does not. Even if you'd picked a better example you
don't need a DM to step in and prevent the abuse here because the rules
*do it themselves* by instructing you on how to use checks and balances. A
player or individual who *breaks* these rules and ignores the guidelines
is not the fault of the system.

[Bradd W. Szonye]

Post by Symbol

Post by Bradd W. Szonye
You're still shitting on the letter and the spirit of the rules here.
For example, you clearly /still/ do not understand what "estimate"
means.

... I don't know why you are consistently hostile to me ....

I am hostile to you because you've consistently been shitting on the
letter and the spirit of the rules, and then insisting that the problem
is the rulebook's fault.

Post by Symbol

... nor do I greatly care. I would advise you, though, to pick your
fights more judiciously, because this was pretty ridiculous.

No, Laszlo, it wasn't. You are arguing that following the rules
produces a result that it clearly does not. Even if you'd picked a
better example you don't need a DM to step in and prevent the abuse
here because the rules *do it themselves* by instructing you on how to
use checks and balances. A player or individual who *breaks* these
rules and ignores the guidelines is not the fault of the system.

Exactly.

[Kaos]

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:44:34 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye"

Post by Bradd W. Szonye

Post by Bradd W. Szonye
You're still shitting on the letter and the spirit of the rules here.
For example, you clearly /still/ do not understand what "estimate"
means.

... I don't know why you are consistently hostile to me ....

I am hostile to you because you've consistently been shitting on the
letter and the spirit of the rules, and then insisting that the problem
is the rulebook's fault.

OMG!

Bradd hasn't just become the new MSB, he's become some nasty hybrid of
MSB and ME!


RUN FOR THE HILLS!
(Or just be glad he didn't pick up my bdsm fetish...)
(yet)

[Symbol]

Post by Symbol

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Symbol
It's nothing like that at all. Awaken grants "human like

sentience"

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
to

Post by Symbol
animals and trees and the stat boosts represents the mechanics of

that

Post by Symbol
change. Humans already *have* human like sentience.

So? Who cares? The Calm Emotions spell "can stop raging creatures

from

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
fighting or joyous ones from reveling. Creatures so affected cannot
take violent actions (...)" Are you saying that since a

professional

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
assassin who's planning to kill someone is already calm, the spell
wouldn't have any effect on him?

Don't be absurd. That isn't a valid comparison and ignores the next
sentence. "Creatures so affected cannot take violent action". Rules

don't

Post by Symbol
exist in isolation.

Much like your interpretation of Awaken ignores the next sentence,
which says exactly what stat bonuses it grants, I guess.

Bullshit Lazlo. Does my interpretation involve not granting bonuses to
trees or animals, hmm?

Post by Symbol

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Um, appropriate for the CR 8 Stone Giant, or the CR 3 party?

If the party wants to get in the way of the Dwarven Giant hunters

that is

Post by Symbol
their decision (and the polymorphed character isn't CR 8 either -

notice

Post by Symbol
those 14 racial HD you don't get and the special qualities?).

True. On the other hand, you get to keep your fighter feats.

Big deal.

Post by Symbol

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
<snip>
Sure, okay. I'm not saying it's a good tactic in all situations. I

am,

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
however, saying that getting a +4 LA race for free (well, a

thousand

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
gold or so) is broken.

You *aren't* getting a +4 LA race for a thousand+ gold (almost half

of a

Post by Symbol
3rd level characters expected wealth by the way). The polymorph spell
makes it quite clear about what you actually get. Since it's a spell

as

Post by Symbol
vulnerable as any other it also dictates what you've got to lose.

Okay, so you get a permanent super-Enlarge Person, a permanent
super-Bull's Strength, and a permanent super-Bear's Endurance, and a
permanent natural armor bonus for 1000 gp or so.

No you don't.

Post by Symbol
Phew, for a moment there, I really thought it was unbalanced.

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Really? Adjusted "appropriately" according to who's definition of
"appropriate"?

According to the guidelines laid out in the books and the plethora of
items offered for comparison.

Well, a Ring of Cure Light Wounds at will costs 1800 gp according to
the book

No it won't.

Post by Symbol
(no similar item to compare it to, so we're left with the
table).

What does that tell you genius?

Post by Symbol
I guess you think that's balanced, too. If that's the case, I
suppose I can't argue with that.

Shove your strawmen up your arse.

[l***@freemail.hu]

Post by Symbol

Post by Symbol

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Symbol
It's nothing like that at all. Awaken grants "human like

sentience"

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
to

Post by Symbol
animals and trees and the stat boosts represents the

mechanics of

Post by Symbol

Post by Symbol

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
that

Post by Symbol
change. Humans already *have* human like sentience.

So? Who cares? The Calm Emotions spell "can stop raging

creatures

Post by Symbol

Post by Symbol
from

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
fighting or joyous ones from reveling. Creatures so affected cannot
take violent actions (...)" Are you saying that since a

professional

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
assassin who's planning to kill someone is already calm, the spell
wouldn't have any effect on him?

Don't be absurd. That isn't a valid comparison and ignores the next
sentence. "Creatures so affected cannot take violent action". Rules

don't

Post by Symbol
exist in isolation.

Much like your interpretation of Awaken ignores the next sentence,
which says exactly what stat bonuses it grants, I guess.

Bullshit Lazlo. Does my interpretation involve not granting bonuses to
trees or animals, hmm?

Your quote:

"You could actually legitimately argue that awaken wouldn't grant
modifiers
to a polymorphed, sapient creature in the first place."

Is a human polymorphed into an animal an animal? Yes. Therefore, your
interpretation _does_ indeed involve not granting bonuses to trees or
animals.

Post by Symbol

Post by Symbol
Okay, so you get a permanent super-Enlarge Person, a permanent
super-Bull's Strength, and a permanent super-Bear's Endurance, and a
permanent natural armor bonus for 1000 gp or so.

No you don't.

Explain, please?

Post by Symbol

Post by Symbol
Well, a Ring of Cure Light Wounds at will costs 1800 gp according to
the book

No it won't.

So how much will it cost then, according to the book?

Post by Symbol

Post by Symbol
(no similar item to compare it to, so we're left with the
table).

What does that tell you genius?

It tells me that a DM decision is necessary. WHICH WAS MY ENTIRE POINT.
If you'll go up and check what we're debating, you'll note that I was
simply debating Peter Knutsen's argument that:

"Wrong. Core D&D3 does not require even a minimum of "GM
opinion" to prevent abusive optimization, because abusive
degrees of optimization is simply not possible, as the
system is thoroughly designed. The GM can simply give his
players the core books and tell them that they can do
anything that falls inside the rules."

Post by Symbol

Post by Symbol
I guess you think that's balanced, too. If that's the case, I
suppose I can't argue with that.

Shove your strawmen up your arse.

Tachnically, that _was_ a strawman, because I forgot about this caveat:

"Note: Not interested in discussing the wider argument. Just your
specific
points."

Sorry about that. On the other hand, please note that I _am_ interested
in and focused on the wider argument.

Laszlo

[Symbol]

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Much like your interpretation of Awaken ignores the next sentence,
which says exactly what stat bonuses it grants, I guess.

Bullshit Lazlo. Does my interpretation involve not granting bonuses

to

Post by Symbol
trees or animals, hmm?

"You could actually legitimately argue that awaken wouldn't grant
modifiers
to a polymorphed, sapient creature in the first place."
Is a human polymorphed into an animal an animal? Yes.

*NO*. Even if the polymorph is a permanent effect the target only
temporarily acquires the new creature type because it comes and goes with
the energy of the spell. If it was the permanent result of a spell with an
instantaneous duration that would be another matter.

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Therefore, your
interpretation _does_ indeed involve not granting bonuses to trees or
animals.

Nonsense.

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Okay, so you get a permanent super-Enlarge Person, a permanent
super-Bull's Strength, and a permanent super-Bear's Endurance, and

a

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
permanent natural armor bonus for 1000 gp or so.

No you don't.

Explain, please?

Your list quite conveniently ignores the drawbacks that wouldn't come from
spells of that nature.

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Well, a Ring of Cure Light Wounds at will costs 1800 gp according

to

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
the book

No it won't.

So how much will it cost then, according to the book?

Lazlo that item cannot be costed according to the book and since that's
obvious from a cursory glance at the rules I can only conclude that you
don't know what the hell you are doing. Your habit of picking and choosing
what to use and what to ignore has tripped you up again.

What is the example item for a command word item, hmm? - Cape of the
mountebank.

How much would that cost using the formula hmm? 7*4*1800 = 50,400gp.

What does that tell you? THAT THERE IS MORE GOING ON PERHAPS?

Wait a second it can be only used once per day and if we apply the
"charges per day modifier" that's 50,400 * 1/5 = 10,080gp which EXACTLY
THE COST GIVEN IN THE BOOK.

This implies that an unmodified use of the command word formula produces
an item that can be used 5 times per day and 1800gp is the cost I would
assign to a 5/day CLW item with a personal use only function (like the
Cape) based on the formula estimate.

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
(no similar item to compare it to, so we're left with the
table).

What does that tell you genius?

It tells me that a DM decision is necessary.

Nonsense. Even though I didn't want to discuss the role of a DM (again) I
feel compelled to point out that not all players are abusive arseholes who
don't know how to interpret rules and guidelines.

Post by l***@freemail.hu
"Wrong. Core D&D3 does not require even a minimum of "GM
opinion" to prevent abusive optimization, because abusive
degrees of optimization is simply not possible, as the
system is thoroughly designed. The GM can simply give his
players the core books and tell them that they can do
anything that falls inside the rules."

Peter Knutsen is a militant. I don't agree with that statement but as I
said before I have no wish to discuss it or the role of the DM. I've
recently made my opinions on the latter very clear.

[Keith Davies]

[cure light wounds ring cost]
This implies that an unmodified use of the command word formula produces
an item that can be used 5 times per day and 1800gp is the cost I would
assign to a 5/day CLW item with a personal use only function (like the
Cape) based on the formula estimate.

It is only implied (at best), not directly stated by the rules.

However, it is an imminently reasonable way of limiting the device.
It's exactly what I did IMC for an item of a similar nature. Actually,
there was a ring of cure light, and also a sword of use-activated chill
touch (he didn't even try use-activated true strike).


I would suggest instead the comparison method: this is almost exactly
like a ring of regeneration, except:

. doesn't regrow limbs or organs
. is way, *way* faster (d8+1/round, rather than level/hour)
. requires an action to activate (at will; it shouldn't be considered use
activated)
. ring of regeneration works only on damage taken while the ring is worn;
as written there is no such limitation on this ring.
... huh, ring of regeneration no longer brings someone back from the dead.

A ring of regeneration is 90k.

Post by l***@freemail.hu
It tells me that a DM decision is necessary.

Nonsense. Even though I didn't want to discuss the role of a DM
(again) I feel compelled to point out that not all players are
abusive arseholes who don't know how to interpret rules and
guidelines.

I would go as far as saying "human intervention is needed". That is,
the guidelines should not be applied blindly (they're *guidelines*, of
course they shouldn't be)... but a reasonable player would disallow
this as fast as a reasonable DM would. Or at least, suggest the 5/day
interpretation.


Keith

[Kaos]

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:09:38 GMT, Keith Davies

Post by Keith Davies

[cure light wounds ring cost]
This implies that an unmodified use of the command word formula produces
an item that can be used 5 times per day and 1800gp is the cost I would
assign to a 5/day CLW item with a personal use only function (like the
Cape) based on the formula estimate.

It is only implied (at best), not directly stated by the rules.

Unless there is explicit precedent to the contrary, that should be
good enough for rational beings.

Post by Keith Davies
I would go as far as saying "human intervention is needed". That is,
the guidelines should not be applied blindly (they're *guidelines*, of
course they shouldn't be)... but a reasonable player would disallow
this as fast as a reasonable DM would. Or at least, suggest the 5/day
interpretation.

Indeed. But therein lies an uncontestable axiom of any rules-system:
they require reasonable people in order to be meaningful in the first
place.

[Symbol]

Post by Keith Davies

[cure light wounds ring cost]
This implies that an unmodified use of the command word formula produces
an item that can be used 5 times per day and 1800gp is the cost I would
assign to a 5/day CLW item with a personal use only function (like the
Cape) based on the formula estimate.

It is only implied (at best), not directly stated by the rules.

When it comes to MI creation a lot of stuff is implied rather than stated
but it's covered by the instructions to compare custom items with existing
creations. I stuck with the cape because its the item given as the example
of a command activated type but it applies equally well to other items
that function in the same way like the circlets of blasting etc.

In any case assuming that not applying a charge modifier results in an
item usuable at will (like Lazlo did) is extremely stupid given that it
would be cheaper than a 6/day item.

Post by Keith Davies
However, it is an imminently reasonable way of limiting the device.
It's exactly what I did IMC for an item of a similar nature. Actually,
there was a ring of cure light, and also a sword of use-activated chill
touch (he didn't even try use-activated true strike).

NWN has quite a funky way of doing powers on weapon and armours. The power
has a chance of triggering when you hit or are hit (respectively) with
the cost based on the probability of the trigger activating. I'd call that
use activated but if the user decides when a power triggers I'd treat that
as a command word.

Post by Keith Davies
I would suggest instead the comparison method: this is almost exactly

I don't think I'd allow it at all but if you are going to it seems like a
good place to start.

Post by Keith Davies
. doesn't regrow limbs or organs
. is way, *way* faster (d8+1/round, rather than level/hour)
. requires an action to activate (at will; it shouldn't be considered use
activated)
. ring of regeneration works only on damage taken while the ring is worn;
as written there is no such limitation on this ring.
... huh, ring of regeneration no longer brings someone back from the dead.
A ring of regeneration is 90k.

Post by l***@freemail.hu
It tells me that a DM decision is necessary.

Nonsense. Even though I didn't want to discuss the role of a DM
(again) I feel compelled to point out that not all players are
abusive arseholes who don't know how to interpret rules and
guidelines.

I would go as far as saying "human intervention is needed". That is,
the guidelines should not be applied blindly (they're *guidelines*, of
course they shouldn't be)... but a reasonable player would disallow
this as fast as a reasonable DM would. Or at least, suggest the 5/day
interpretation.

Right.

[Nockermensch]

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
What other pitfalls do you have
in mind?

Some campaign specific, some practical.

<snip>
Sure, okay. I'm not saying it's a good tactic in all situations. I am,
however, saying that getting a +4 LA race for free (well, a

thousand

Post by Symbol

Post by l***@freemail.hu
gold or so) is broken.

You *aren't* getting a +4 LA race for a thousand+ gold (almost half of a
3rd level characters expected wealth by the way). The polymorph spell
makes it quite clear about what you actually get. Since it's a spell as
vulnerable as any other it also dictates what you've got to lose.

Also, since when PoA can overcome the HD limit? Silly examples of
lizards into manticores apart, I'd enforce the rule that the fighter
needs 14 levels before becoming a stone giant.

[Symbol]

Post by Nockermensch

Post by Symbol
You *aren't* getting a +4 LA race for a thousand+ gold (almost half

of a

Post by Symbol
3rd level characters expected wealth by the way). The polymorph spell
makes it quite clear about what you actually get. Since it's a spell

as

Post by Symbol
vulnerable as any other it also dictates what you've got to lose.

Also, since when PoA can overcome the HD limit? Silly examples of
lizards into manticores apart, I'd enforce the rule that the fighter
needs 14 levels before becoming a stone giant.
--
@ @ Nockermensch, a human polymorphed into a human.

Tempting but nah. It obviously doesn't use that limitation.

[tussock]

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Peter Knutsen
Wrong. Core D&D3 does not require even a minimum of "GM
opinion" to prevent abusive optimization, because abusive
degrees of optimization is simply not possible, as the
system is thoroughly designed. The GM can simply give his
players the core books and tell them that they can do
anything that falls inside the rules.

Neat! My character pays for a Polymorph Any Object to be cast on him by
a level 15 Wizard (1200 gp, PHB page 129), turning him into an ape.
Next, he pays a level 15 Druid to cast Maximized Awaken on him. (2450
gp) Then he gets the Polymorph dismissed. He now has 18 Int and +3
Charisma.

Ape, OK. Permanent spell effect that resets intellignece, until
dispelled, when your Int returns to normal. Awaken doesn't maximise like
that, but you could just try the process over and over until you got a
good roll for the same effect.
Dismissing the polymorph returns your stats back to thier original
form, you're human again.

Spell A: Change type and reset stats.
Spell B: Ditto, but instantanious. You were a human polymorphed
into an Animal, you're now a human polymorphed into a Magical Beast
(augmented Animal).
Dispel A: Change type and reset stats, take 3. You're not a Magical
Beast (augmented Animal) anymore, you're a Human again, no longer
polymorphed onto a thing with high Int.

Post by l***@freemail.hu
So you would allow this, then?

Rather a waste of money. The "being a giant" trick I snipped is
better, but hardly groundbreaking, it's not like people don't throw
'round dispells at that level.
Said Giantised fighter is still quite vulnerable to /Domination/
and such things, which /will/ need dispelled before he TPKs his own squad.

I guess if you're constantly fighting magicless, flightless
opponents on a rock solid featureless plain it's pretty dandy, what with
all the big scary stats. Good luck with that.

[l***@freemail.hu]

Post by tussock
Rather a waste of money. The "being a giant" trick I snipped is
better, but hardly groundbreaking, it's not like people don't throw
'round dispells at that level.

At level 3? Really?

Post by tussock
Said Giantised fighter is still quite vulnerable to /Domination/
and such things, which /will/ need dispelled before he TPKs his own squad.

So it's balanced because he's now too powerful... er, what?

Post by tussock
I guess if you're constantly fighting magicless, flightless
opponents on a rock solid featureless plain it's pretty dandy, what with
all the big scary stats. Good luck with that.

Because god knows stone giants can't deal with _features_.

Laszlo

[tussock]

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by tussock
Rather a waste of money. The "being a giant" trick I snipped is
better, but hardly groundbreaking, it's not like people don't throw
'round dispells at that level.

At level 3? Really?

OK, I did sort of miss the L3 bit. 8]
Most "dispelling" involves manouvre to wait out the durations at
low levels. There's still issues with it when you've got to go to the
local city. DnD city guards do have /Dispel Magic/ available on call,
you'd probably even get the bill for it.
Even small town wizards can afford scrolls of the same.

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by tussock
Said Giantised fighter is still quite vulnerable to /Domination/
and such things, which /will/ need dispelled before he TPKs his own squad.

So it's balanced because he's now too powerful... er, what?

Enchanters are part of the game. Sometimes a PC switches sides.
Having _all_ your combat power in one party member (the one with crappy
will saves) is something to be avoided.
Again, at 3rd level this isn't such a problem, as you're not
Humanoid any more.

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by tussock
I guess if you're constantly fighting magicless, flightless
opponents on a rock solid featureless plain it's pretty dandy, what with
all the big scary stats. Good luck with that.

Because god knows stone giants can't deal with _features_.

You know, the ones that provide Medium creatures with cover and
concealment but don't do squat for a 12' tall giant. The ones with gaps
that are damn near impossible for a giant to fit through, stone
buildings that take forever to break into, low ceilings...

IMC, all intelligent humanoid groups have methods of dealing with
maruading Giants and the like, at the very least they have a small
defensable gap available where Large creatures can't fit. Apply massed
longspears and missile fire to finish. If they have mid-high level folk
available, they'll come all guns blazing at the sight of a marauding Giant.
The world couldn't be remotely stable otherwise.

Hey, if all you want to do is scare away everyone you can actually
fight, while attracting those you can't (who'll promtly /Dispel/ the
whole thing, or /Charm Monster/ your ass), go for it. I wouldn't want to
be a Stone Giant until I could fight the sort of things that'll try and
stand up to one.

Better tricks for a 3rd level Fighter with 1200gp to burn.
Hire a large group of archers (though there should be political
consequences to such actions, even assuming loyalty and marale holds).
Buy _lots_ of potions of 1st and 2nd level spells. Invest in a wand of
CLW for the party healer...

[l***@freemail.hu]

Post by tussock
OK, I did sort of miss the L3 bit. 8]
Most "dispelling" involves manouvre to wait out the durations at
low levels. There's still issues with it when you've got to go to the
local city. DnD city guards do have /Dispel Magic/ available on call,
you'd probably even get the bill for it.

Heh. That actually sounds like a pretty cool idea.

Post by tussock

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by tussock
Said Giantised fighter is still quite vulnerable to

/Domination/

Post by tussock

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by tussock
and such things, which /will/ need dispelled before he TPKs his own squad.

So it's balanced because he's now too powerful... er, what?

Enchanters are part of the game. Sometimes a PC switches sides.
Having _all_ your combat power in one party member (the one with crappy
will saves) is something to be avoided.

Heh, you've just made the same argument I always make against the
Frenzied Berserker.

Post by tussock

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by tussock
I guess if you're constantly fighting magicless, flightless
opponents on a rock solid featureless plain it's pretty dandy, what with
all the big scary stats. Good luck with that.

Because god knows stone giants can't deal with _features_.

You know, the ones that provide Medium creatures with cover and
concealment but don't do squat for a 12' tall giant. The ones with gaps
that are damn near impossible for a giant to fit through, stone
buildings that take forever to break into, low ceilings...

Fair enough. On the other hand, a larger-than-medium size is generally
a big advantage in combat, hence Enlarge Person as a _buff_ spell.
Laszlo

[Kaos]

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by tussock
Rather a waste of money. The "being a giant" trick I snipped is
better, but hardly groundbreaking, it's not like people don't throw
'round dispells at that level.

At level 3? Really?

If your level 3 character can find someone to cast the spell on him,
even his "Appropriate Opposition" can find someone to buy a Dispell
scroll or item from.

Nevermind that Major Encounters are often up to 3 CRs higher than the
ECL of the party.

[l***@freemail.hu]

Post by Kaos

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by tussock
Rather a waste of money. The "being a giant" trick I snipped is
better, but hardly groundbreaking, it's not like people don't throw
'round dispells at that level.

At level 3? Really?

If your level 3 character can find someone to cast the spell on him,
even his "Appropriate Opposition" can find someone to buy a Dispell
scroll or item from.

While true, this is not a nice way to DM. If the fighter gets a
powerful sword, should his opponents now have Adamantine weapons and go
for the Sunder? If the Wizard learns and uses Fireball, should all the
party's opponents invest in Resist Fire potions?

I just don't like that.

Post by Kaos
Nevermind that Major Encounters are often up to 3 CRs higher than the
ECL of the party.

a level 6 mage has a 5% chance of dispelling a PaO.

Laszlo

[Nikolas Landauer]

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Kaos
If your level 3 character can find someone to cast the spell
on him, even his "Appropriate Opposition" can find someone to
buy a Dispell scroll or item from.

While true, this is not a nice way to DM. If the fighter gets
a powerful sword, should his opponents now have Adamantine
weapons and go for the Sunder?

If they know he has it, yes. Otherwise, the DM is playing the enemies
stupid.

Post by l***@freemail.hu
If the Wizard learns and uses Fireball, should all the party's
opponents invest in Resist Fire potions?

If he uses it and they know about it, yes. Otherwise, the DM is
playing the enemies stupid.

It's hard to hide the fact that the party's fighter suddenly became a
stone giant... And if the enemies know about it, they're going to be
stupid *not* to get a dispel scroll. For that matter, dispel is so
useful against buffing PCs that it's a pretty common tactic *anyway*.

[Hong Ooi]

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:18:27 -0500, Nikolas Landauer

Post by Nikolas Landauer

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Kaos
If your level 3 character can find someone to cast the spell
on him, even his "Appropriate Opposition" can find someone to
buy a Dispell scroll or item from.

While true, this is not a nice way to DM. If the fighter gets
a powerful sword, should his opponents now have Adamantine
weapons and go for the Sunder?

If they know he has it, yes. Otherwise, the DM is playing the enemies
stupid.

Post by l***@freemail.hu
If the Wizard learns and uses Fireball, should all the party's
opponents invest in Resist Fire potions?

If he uses it and they know about it, yes. Otherwise, the DM is
playing the enemies stupid.
It's hard to hide the fact that the party's fighter suddenly became a
stone giant... And if the enemies know about it, they're going to be
stupid *not* to get a dispel scroll. For that matter, dispel is so
useful against buffing PCs that it's a pretty common tactic *anyway*.

As a general rule, I try to keep from using dispel. That's because I like
over-the-top, super-powered fights, and taking away people's super powers
works against that (and overusing it can also get annoying for the
players). However, D&D's structure is such that sometimes you can't avoid
dispelling, if you want a fight to go more than a couple of rounds. This is
something I find annoying as a DM.

Anyway, I was just posting this because I need to familiarise myself with
this new M$ keyboard's layout with the Home, End, Del, PgUp and PgDn keys
in the wrong places. So I've got to type lots and lots of superfluous crap,
and make lots of speling erors as well. Perhaps I should be doing this
while drunk. Don't mind me.

Where was I? Holy crap, that's just two paragraphs. Jeez, I knew being
concise would come back to bite me one day. And I'm STILL not making enough
speliing errros to exercise the keypad. Bah. But hey, wireless is cool. I
like the mouse, especially. Damn thing only has a range of 3 feet, though.
How am I supposed to vegetate on the sofa with a range like that? St00pid
RF wireless devices. Also, how do you turn the F-lock on automatically at
startup, instead of having to press the key every time? Oh well, time for
another coffee. Maybe if I get wired enough, I'll start making those
speeling eroors that I was talking about.

And I haven't even used PgUp and PgDn yet. Screen's too big. Too much text
to type before it starts scrolling. Hey, at this rate I'll be complaining
about my tax bracket within two paragraphs. But I really like the new big
Del key, though. As opposed to the Dell key, or the Grad key (<-- MATH
JOEK), both of which would be of dubious utility.

I can't believe how much I've spent in the last three weeks. Oh well, that
tax refund came in handy. Does mentioning that count as complaining about
my tax bracket? Ah shit, I can't think of anything else to type. Coffee
hasn't kicked in and I've got other stuff to do. Like get breakfast, for
one thing. Too early in the morning to get into the stream-of-consciousness
schtick.

[Kaos]

Post by Hong Ooi
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:18:27 -0500, Nikolas Landauer

Post by Nikolas Landauer

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Kaos
If your level 3 character can find someone to cast the spell
on him, even his "Appropriate Opposition" can find someone to
buy a Dispell scroll or item from.

While true, this is not a nice way to DM. If the fighter gets
a powerful sword, should his opponents now have Adamantine
weapons and go for the Sunder?

If they know he has it, yes. Otherwise, the DM is playing the enemies
stupid.

Post by l***@freemail.hu
If the Wizard learns and uses Fireball, should all the party's
opponents invest in Resist Fire potions?

If he uses it and they know about it, yes. Otherwise, the DM is
playing the enemies stupid.
It's hard to hide the fact that the party's fighter suddenly became a
stone giant... And if the enemies know about it, they're going to be
stupid *not* to get a dispel scroll. For that matter, dispel is so
useful against buffing PCs that it's a pretty common tactic *anyway*.

As a general rule, I try to keep from using dispel. That's because I like
over-the-top, super-powered fights, and taking away people's super powers
works against that (and overusing it can also get annoying for the
players).

But... but... but...
Negating Super Powers *is* my Super Power.

(That or stealing them. My three fav Marvel superheroes are Rogue,
Leech and Wolverine, in that order.)

Post by Hong Ooi
I can't believe how much I've spent in the last three weeks. Oh well, that
tax refund came in handy. Does mentioning that count as complaining about
my tax bracket?

No.

Post by Hong Ooi
Ah shit, I can't think of anything else to type. Coffee
hasn't kicked in and I've got other stuff to do. Like get breakfast, for
one thing. Too early in the morning to get into the stream-of-consciousness
schtick.

So that's where it went. That schtick used to be mine.
I gave it up for the 'stealing other people's schticks" schtick.

[Symbol]

Post by Hong Ooi
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:18:27 -0500, Nikolas Landauer
I can't believe how much I've spent in the last three weeks.

Don't you have "January sales" in Austria? Shops trying to get rid of
stuff they didn't sell at Christmas? I'm buying a plasma screen TV when
they start so if anyone can recommend any brands/features etc...

Post by Hong Ooi
Oh well, that
tax refund came in handy. Does mentioning that count as complaining about
my tax bracket?

No. You can complain about tax as much as you like though. Crappy
government thieves <shakes fist>.

[Kaos]

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Kaos

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by tussock
Rather a waste of money. The "being a giant" trick I snipped

is

Post by Kaos

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by tussock
better, but hardly groundbreaking, it's not like people don't

throw

Post by Kaos

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by tussock
'round dispells at that level.

At level 3? Really?

If your level 3 character can find someone to cast the spell on him,
even his "Appropriate Opposition" can find someone to buy a Dispell
scroll or item from.

While true, this is not a nice way to DM.

And dumping half your wealth on a one-trick 'xploit' isn't exactly a
nice way to play.
Besides, the scroll of Dispel has uses other than just screwing with
the silly folks who buy PaO effects before the cost of losing it
becomes manageable. And if you happen to beat the guy without
provoking him into using it, your wizard gets a nice spell to add to
his book.

Post by l***@freemail.hu

Post by Kaos
If the fighter gets a

powerful sword, should his opponents now have Adamantine weapons and go
for the Sunder? If the Wizard learns and uses Fireball, should all the
party's opponents invest in Resist Fire potions?

Obviously not. But by the same token, if the party has a habit of
using Buffs, should the opposition never *ever* attempt to procure a
Dispel?

Post by l***@freemail.hu
I just don't like that.

Post by Kaos
Nevermind that Major Encounters are often up to 3 CRs higher than the
ECL of the party.

a level 6 mage has a 5% chance of dispelling a PaO.

Which puts it into the realm of possibility.

[Neon Fox]

Post by Skyblind
If I didn't include this codicil, I had better
or anyone who uses this will have an unstoppable army of
super-cripples decimating their dungeons...lol!

Well, a competent GM is of course going to keep a handle
on this sort of thing on her own, but it might be useful to
give people an idea of where you think the line falls.

Post by Skyblind
In my games I make anyone who wants any boons or banes
at all (taking none is still an option) write a 2-4 page background
for their character explaining why they have these advantages.

Sigh. That's one of those things that I completely agree with
philosophically, and absolutely hate having to do in reality.
I don't want to spend several hours coming up with background
for my character; I want to start *playing*! :)

Post by Skyblind
And being able to stay alive at -11 to -20 isn't a big deal if you

r>emember you drop unconscious at 0hp or less. Even if you are alive

Post by Skyblind
at -19hp You're still out of action, and still need a lot of help to
recover before dying - but you just have a bigger buffer zone before
your PC dies. Its good - but not a game breaker.

Don't forget: there's Diehard (I believe that's the name of the feat).
Even if you're ruling that Diehard only keeps you up till -10, that
gives you 10 more hp of fighting before you have to lie down and bleed,
and you're not facing the "one last action at -9 or do I let my friends
face the baddy alone" choice.

Post by Skyblind
Yeah he should - I kind of thought this was a no-brainer and assumed
everyone else would too. I'll amend the text of my master document to
include that explaination

Yeah, well...this is D&D. These are the people who feel the need to
spell out what Pounce does in every MM entry that contains it. :)

Post by Skyblind
I figured most DMs would freak if someone came to them with a
Toughness 5 brute, and automatically disallow it, but some DMs don't
have the guts to say "NO" to their players - so setting a practical
limit in the document of 2-3 levels sounds like a good idea.

Well, a GM that wimpy is screwed anyway, IMO. But giving non-
barbarians DR rather impinges on the barbarian's niche...and
giving barbarians *more* DR may unbalance things. I'd have to
see it in play.

Post by Skyblind
Hrm... I hope not. I've played GURPS for years, and love their
system (even if D&D is my favorite RPG) but I'll have to check my
books - if they are "ripped off" I'll either have to change the
wording or change the Boon or both. I don't want to be a plaigarist
here. Thanks for the info.

I suspect that you've read through the Ads and Disads list often
enough to have internalized a lot of the wording. I know I have;
that's how I recognized it. :) It doesn't help that a lot of the GURPS
entries are very aptly named.
--Neon Fox
(who is a her, from lower in the thread, if you care)

[Peter Knutsen]

Post by Neon Fox
You might also want a limit on the total for Banes, to avoid the
nearsighted masochistic one-legged kleptomaniac cowardly
overweight albino midget effect. :)

A much better solution is to use a diminishing returns effect.

As an example, the first four points of bane might give full
compensatory value, the next four are only half value (so
that if your banes add up to -8, then yo only get
compensation as if you had taken -6), the next four are one
quarter value, and so forth.

That way, you don't actually prevent the creation of
characters with many banes, you merely discourage it. That
achieves the goal - inarguably worth pursuing - of the
highest possible degree of freedom of character creation.


In general, trying to graft an advantage/disadvantage
subsystem onto a rules set that was not originally built
with he that in mind is likely to end up being
unsatisfactory, if not frustrating. I tried doing that with
Quest FRP (a system that is, on the gross conceptual level,
similar to D&D3), but in the end I gave up and started
making my own system, one built from the start with
ads/disads in mind (Neon Fox, or others, might want to read
my post, from some weeks ago, on "old school vs new school
systems" in r.g.f.advocacy).

[Neon Fox]

Neon Fox, or others, might want to read my post...

No, I fear I don't. I wouldn't want to be tempted to the
sort of flat, "This is not how I see it and so it must be
crap" statement I have so often seen others make.

It's altogether too bad this Google thing has no
killfile, but I suppose the important killfile is between
my ears.

--Neon Fox

[l***@freemail.hu]

Post by Neon Fox

Hard to Kill - Your character is very tough and clings to
life with unusual tenacity. Most PC's die when their HP total
drops to -10; This boon allows the character to survive until
he reaches -20 HP.

Wow, that's one of those Advantages, I mean Boons, that I
can't really see anyone *not* taking.

I wouldn't take it; it sucks ass. The good +1 Boons are all superior to
feats; Hard To Kill, on the other hand, is pretty piss-poor when
compared to Improved Toughness.

Post by Neon Fox

Toughness - The character is exceptionally tough...This Boon
can be taken multiple times; its effects stack with itself, and
with other items and class abilities that grant damage
reduction.

Again, that's awfully beefy; I'd suggest limiting it to 2 or 3 levels
at most.

No, it's also a fairly shitty Boon IMO.

Laszlo

[Neon Fox]

Post by l***@freemail.hu
I wouldn't take it; it sucks ass. The good +1 Boons are all superior to
feats; Hard To Kill, on the other hand, is pretty piss-poor when
compared to Improved Toughness.

Even with the feat (Diehard?) that lets you stay up when below 0
hp?

Post by l***@freemail.hu
No, it's also a fairly shitty Boon IMO.

Um? It's *DR*. That thing that even barbarians only get 5
points of over the course of 20 levels? I forget how much a
magic item of even 1 DR costs, but it's not cheap. Heck,
even *stoneskin* requires a 500-gp material component.
And it *stacks*.

--Neon Fox

[l***@freemail.hu]

Post by Neon Fox

Post by l***@freemail.hu
I wouldn't take it; it sucks ass. The good +1 Boons are all superior

to

Post by l***@freemail.hu
feats; Hard To Kill, on the other hand, is pretty piss-poor when
compared to Improved Toughness.

Even with the feat (Diehard?) that lets you stay up
when below 0 hp?

Assuming they combo well together, that's still the equivalent of two
feats that are worth significantly less than 20 HPs, together.

Again, I'll point to Improved Toughness, which is a fairly balanced
feat, as evidenced by the fact that some characters take it, others
don't, and it's never a no-brainer.

Nonetheless "it sucks ass", was not a valid criticism on my part; Hard
to Kill is in fact somewhat usable. But your comment that everyone
would want to take it is just as unfounded.

Post by Neon Fox

Post by l***@freemail.hu
No, it's also a fairly shitty Boon IMO.

Um? It's *DR*. That thing that even barbarians only get 5
points of over the course of 20 levels? I forget how much a
magic item of even 1 DR costs, but it's not cheap. Heck,
even *stoneskin* requires a 500-gp material component.
And it *stacks*.

First of all, Stoneskin has a 250 gp component. Secondly, it gives DR
10. Thirdly, it's a really rarely-used spell, in my experience.

I concur in that a stacking DR 1/- is more powerful than any
DR-granting feat, even the ones for Warforged characters. I just never
saw the appeal of these feats. I also happen to think that the
Barbarian's DR is one of his weaker abilties.

Based on your choices, though, I think the true difference is in our
playing styles. You seem to consider "defensive" feats very desirable.
I don't; I much prefer feats that let my character do interesting
things to proactively avoid taking damage.

Post by Neon Fox
--Neon Fox

Laszlo

[Neon Fox]

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Assuming they combo well together, that's still the equivalent of two
feats that are worth significantly less than 20 HPs, together.

Except that the proposed Boons aren't feats, and don't require spending

a feat slot--it's *one* feat to get essentially 20 more hp. I
misremember
how many Improved Toughness gives you, though, so I may still be
overvaluing the combo.

Post by l***@freemail.hu
First of all, Stoneskin has a 250 gp component. Secondly, it gives DR
10. Thirdly, it's a really rarely-used spell, in my experience.

We're looking at either a 3.0/3.5 problem or a player who's screwing
himself over, then. :) The sorcerer in the Dragonstar campaign I'm in
both has and uses *stoneskin* frequently, and he's been doing it with
500 gp worth of...diamond dust, isn't it?

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Based on your choices, though, I think the true difference is in our
playing styles. You seem to consider "defensive" feats very
desirable. I don't; I much prefer feats that let my character do
interesting things to proactively avoid taking damage.

I see "taking less damage" as a thing that lets the character stay
up longer, and therefore continue doing other interesting things
longer. Flurry of Blows is great, but not if you fall down before you
get to deliver one. ;)

--Neon Fox

[l***@freemail.hu]

Post by Neon Fox

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Assuming they combo well together, that's still the equivalent of two
feats that are worth significantly less than 20 HPs, together.

Except that the proposed Boons aren't feats, and don't require

spending

Post by Neon Fox
a feat slot--it's *one* feat to get essentially 20 more hp. I
misremember
how many Improved Toughness gives you, though, so I may still be
overvaluing the combo.

We've determined that the better Boons are at least equal to, and
sometimes better than, a feat. So yeah, if you're spending a Boon and a
feat on something, you're essentially spending two feats on it.

Post by Neon Fox

Post by l***@freemail.hu
First of all, Stoneskin has a 250 gp component. Secondly, it gives DR
10. Thirdly, it's a really rarely-used spell, in my experience.

We're looking at either a 3.0/3.5 problem or a player who's screwing
himself over, then. :) The sorcerer in the Dragonstar campaign I'm in
both has and uses *stoneskin* frequently, and he's been doing it with
500 gp worth of...diamond dust, isn't it?

Never played 3.0; in 3.5, it's definitely 250 gp.

Post by Neon Fox

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Based on your choices, though, I think the true difference is in our
playing styles. You seem to consider "defensive" feats very
desirable. I don't; I much prefer feats that let my character do
interesting things to proactively avoid taking damage.

I see "taking less damage" as a thing that lets the character stay
up longer, and therefore continue doing other interesting things
longer. Flurry of Blows is great, but not if you fall down before you
get to deliver one. ;)

Lasting a round longer is great, but not if you don't have the
offensive power to take down the guy who's hurting you in that time. ;)

Post by Neon Fox
--Neon Fox

Laszlo

[Neon Fox]

Post by l***@freemail.hu
We've determined that the better Boons are at least equal to,
and sometimes better than, a feat. So yeah, if you're spending
a Boon and a feat on something, you're essentially spending
two feats on it.

I think we're talking about different things again. When I say
"spending a feat" I mean "spending one of the character's feat
slots". The proposed Boons are purchased with a currency
other than feat slots, and are not therefore "spending a feat" to
me.

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Never played 3.0; in 3.5, it's definitely 250 gp.

I'll have to tell Norm to check that, then, to be sure he's not
messing himself up.

*sigh* Wish Dragonstar had been converted to 3.5...

Post by l***@freemail.hu
Lasting a round longer is great, but not if you don't have the
offensive power to take down the guy who's hurting you in
that time. ;)

Definitely a point, though at first level 20 hp is a lot more than
1 round of extra activity.

--Neon Fox

[Hadsil]

Of course, Unearthed Arcana touched on this idea already with Traits
and Flaws. Traits give you a minor bonus for a doube penalty cost,
except in certain situations like a saving throw which is one for one.
Flaws give you flat out penalties, but you can take another Feat per
Flaw. The Flaw penalties are always worse than what a Feat could give
you in bonuses. It is suggested characters start with two traits or
two flaws. If you want to let characters get them as they gain levels
as well, no more than one per five levels.

These Traits and Flaws are less powerful than what you propose for your
Boons and Banes, but they are a good starting point for you to
extrapolate more powerful Traits and Flaws and keep game balance. You
may want to get rid of the downside concept of a Trait and no bonus
Feat per Flaw to have just Traits (positive) and Flaws. Call them
Boons and Banes, natch.

Gerald Katz