Discussion:
Spelljammer or Dragonstar?
(too old to reply)
Justisaur
2004-04-22 00:39:35 UTC
Permalink
So I'm thinking on my next campain setting some more... More ideas than I
know what to do with, obvioulsy all of them aren't going to take... Gamma
world, a primal D&D world, d20 modern w/ magic & psionics, a ECL 20 play
the monsters game, etc. etc.

Then I'm thinking. What do my players really want? A. Likes cyberpunk and
the ability to play cyborgs or synthetics, B. likes Traveler, high magic &
psionics, & the weird/wacky shit C. likes Rangers & psionics. D. likes the
really weird/wacky shit. I like Post-Apocolypse, political, military &
mind control/summoning (either psionics or enchanters/summoners).

So I start thinking, I could try to find some traveler d20 stuff, take the
cyberpunk d20 stuff & mix in psionics. But that will leave out the wacky
stuff. So I think, what's whacky? And it dawns on me! Spelljammer! that
will satisfy both the wacky and the traveler esque at the same time.

I start looking into spelljammer for 3e, and realize it's sort of split at
some time. There don't appear to be any spelljammer d20 books, but there's
some conversions. Then there's dragonstar. I dont' really know much about
dragonstar, but it sounds like it's got more tech in it, which would
probably satisfy player A.

Anyone out there that's played dragonstar? Is it still reasonably wacky?
Any good, good balance or is there a lot of broken crap? Would it be
easier to add tech to Spelljammer or Wacky to dragonstar?
--
Justisaur
http://justisaur.tripod.com/well.htm for my encounter generator, xp
calculator & other files.
G P B
2004-04-22 03:09:43 UTC
Permalink
--
http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Quinton
Post by Justisaur
So I'm thinking on my next campain setting some more... More ideas than I
know what to do with, obvioulsy all of them aren't going to take... Gamma
world, a primal D&D world, d20 modern w/ magic & psionics, a ECL 20 play
the monsters game, etc. etc.
Then I'm thinking. What do my players really want? A. Likes cyberpunk and
the ability to play cyborgs or synthetics, B. likes Traveler, high magic &
psionics, & the weird/wacky shit C. likes Rangers & psionics. D. likes the
really weird/wacky shit. I like Post-Apocolypse, political, military &
mind control/summoning (either psionics or enchanters/summoners).
So I start thinking, I could try to find some traveler d20 stuff, take the
cyberpunk d20 stuff & mix in psionics. But that will leave out the wacky
stuff. So I think, what's whacky? And it dawns on me! Spelljammer!
that
Post by Justisaur
will satisfy both the wacky and the traveler esque at the same time.
I start looking into spelljammer for 3e, and realize it's sort of split at
some time. There don't appear to be any spelljammer d20 books, but there's
some conversions. Then there's dragonstar. I dont' really know much about
dragonstar, but it sounds like it's got more tech in it, which would
probably satisfy player A.
Anyone out there that's played dragonstar? Is it still reasonably wacky?
Any good, good balance or is there a lot of broken crap? Would it be
easier to add tech to Spelljammer or Wacky to dragonstar?
Add tech to Spelljammer. You all ready have guns and such.
Post by Justisaur
--
Justisaur
http://justisaur.tripod.com/well.htm for my encounter generator, xp
calculator & other files.
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Robert Singers
2004-04-22 03:31:32 UTC
Permalink
Out from under a rock popped G P B and said
Post by G P B
--
http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Quinton
Your sig is meant to be that the bottom of your post not the top. It's
very hard to read your post with a newsreader that actually recognises and
does things to sigs.
--
Rob Singers
"All your Ron are belong to us"
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere
Sorcier
2004-04-22 03:00:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justisaur
Anyone out there that's played dragonstar? Is it still reasonably wacky?
Any good, good balance or is there a lot of broken crap? Would it be
easier to add tech to Spelljammer or Wacky to dragonstar?
Define "wacky" better, please.

Adding tech to SJ would be hard, IMO.
It would be like adding it to Forgotten Realms.
Adding ANY aspect of D+D to Dragonstar should be easy.
Adding aspects of Gamma World to Dragonstar should be easy.
I think DS would satisfy your tech-prone players.
I guess I'd recommend adding a "nuclear" holocaust or too so you
can slip in some GW stuff, and then play up a D+D planar style
cosmology to get the "wacky" cranked a little.
Justisaur
2004-04-22 20:08:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sorcier
Post by Justisaur
Anyone out there that's played dragonstar? Is it still reasonably
wacky? Any good, good balance or is there a lot of broken crap?
Would it be easier to add tech to Spelljammer or Wacky to dragonstar?
Define "wacky" better, please.
Hmm. Well wacky is somewhat hard to define. Silly, and really out
there... When I think of spelljammer I think of dowhar (pengin merchants
who ride flying pigs), and phlogistine, and other really weird ideas.
player B likes wildmages, wildsurges, etc, anything randomized. player D
just likes to do really weird things like attacking lycantrhopes by
flicking silver coins at them, play ninja were-boars and generally cause
chaos - somewhat like I imagine ron, only toned down to level the other
players can live with.
Post by Sorcier
Adding tech to SJ would be hard, IMO.
It would be like adding it to Forgotten Realms.
Adding ANY aspect of D+D to Dragonstar should be easy.
Adding aspects of Gamma World to Dragonstar should be easy.
I think DS would satisfy your tech-prone players.
I guess I'd recommend adding a "nuclear" holocaust or too so you
can slip in some GW stuff, and then play up a D+D planar style
cosmology to get the "wacky" cranked a little.
I actually don't care that much for D&D planar cosmology much, it's too
complicated, with too many planes.

I've looked through some of what's up on the 3e spelljammer conversions,
and there's actually not much, it looks like it would be a lot of work to
update it. So I'm starting to think Dragonstar, which means some layout of
cash. Not sure if my local store has it, but it looks to be available
pretty cheap on amazon. I'd really like a closer up look at it first
though.
--
Justisaur
http://justisaur.tripod.com/well.htm for my encounter generator, xp
calculator & other files.
Sorcier
2004-04-22 23:39:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justisaur
Post by Sorcier
Post by Justisaur
Anyone out there that's played dragonstar? Is it still reasonably
wacky? Any good, good balance or is there a lot of broken crap?
Would it be easier to add tech to Spelljammer or Wacky to dragonstar?
Define "wacky" better, please.
Hmm. Well wacky is somewhat hard to define.
Well, I was curious if you were going for Zelazny wacky, Farmer
wacky, Xanth wacky, or Mandel wacky. ;)
Post by Justisaur
Silly, and really out
there... When I think of spelljammer I think of dowhar (pengin merchants
who ride flying pigs), and phlogistine, and other really weird ideas.
The flow and the dowhar and far apart on my scale.
It's like the difference between The Fly and Jack Frost. ;)
Post by Justisaur
player B likes wildmages, wildsurges, etc, anything randomized.
Ick.
But then I had my Wand of Wonder days too, and occasional must
cater to a player who REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, WANTS A DECK OF
MANY THINGS!!!!!!!
Post by Justisaur
player D
just likes to do really weird things like attacking lycantrhopes by
flicking silver coins at them, play ninja were-boars and generally cause
chaos
Not too far from my spot on the spectrum.
Though I stop short of breaking the game.
Pushing the limits of the setting sure, even exceeding them by
the standards of lesser minds, but never, never beyond what is
actually within the realm of the possible by the established tenets.
Post by Justisaur
- somewhat like I imagine ron, only toned down to level the other
players can live with.
My favorite kind. ;)
Post by Justisaur
Post by Sorcier
Adding tech to SJ would be hard, IMO.
It would be like adding it to Forgotten Realms.
Adding ANY aspect of D+D to Dragonstar should be easy.
Adding aspects of Gamma World to Dragonstar should be easy.
I think DS would satisfy your tech-prone players.
I guess I'd recommend adding a "nuclear" holocaust or too so you
can slip in some GW stuff, and then play up a D+D planar style
cosmology to get the "wacky" cranked a little.
I actually don't care that much for D&D planar cosmology much, it's too
complicated, with too many planes.
Hm, I was looking conceptually at the idea of realities outside
the baseline, more than at a one to one mapping of D+D's planes.
I _like_ the idea of nigh infinite planes, but with limited
access to them. Always leaves room to throw in some wild plot
twists without throwing the gates open to utter randomness.
Post by Justisaur
I've looked through some of what's up on the 3e spelljammer conversions,
and there's actually not much, it looks like it would be a lot of work to
update it.
Agreed.
I've been sorely disappointed by the small scope of what I've seen.
Post by Justisaur
So I'm starting to think Dragonstar, which means some layout of
cash. Not sure if my local store has it, but it looks to be available
pretty cheap on amazon. I'd really like a closer up look at it first
though.
Also try eBay.
I got my core books from a used games store for half off.
I'd say you only need the Starfarer's Handbook.
Many of the others are useful if you _want_ to use the DS setting,
but if you are just mining for a ruleset to use for your own setting
the D+D books you have and the SH should give you a good start.
Justisaur
2004-04-23 20:12:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sorcier
Post by Justisaur
Post by Sorcier
Define "wacky" better, please.
Hmm. Well wacky is somewhat hard to define.
Well, I was curious if you were going for Zelazny wacky, Farmer
wacky, Xanth wacky, or Mandel wacky. ;)
Xanth is just punnish (yes that's a pun). I think more Pratchet wacky, if
you are looking for a writer.
Post by Sorcier
Post by Justisaur
Post by Sorcier
Adding tech to SJ would be hard, IMO.
It would be like adding it to Forgotten Realms.
Adding ANY aspect of D+D to Dragonstar should be easy.
Adding aspects of Gamma World to Dragonstar should be easy.
I think DS would satisfy your tech-prone players.
I guess I'd recommend adding a "nuclear" holocaust or too so you
can slip in some GW stuff, and then play up a D+D planar style
cosmology to get the "wacky" cranked a little.
I actually don't care that much for D&D planar cosmology much, it's
too complicated, with too many planes.
Hm, I was looking conceptually at the idea of realities outside
the baseline, more than at a one to one mapping of D+D's planes.
I _like_ the idea of nigh infinite planes, but with limited
access to them. Always leaves room to throw in some wild plot
twists without throwing the gates open to utter randomness.
That's more along my lines.
Post by Sorcier
Post by Justisaur
I've looked through some of what's up on the 3e spelljammer
conversions, and there's actually not much, it looks like it would be
a lot of work to update it.
Agreed.
I've been sorely disappointed by the small scope of what I've seen.
Post by Justisaur
So I'm starting to think Dragonstar, which means some layout of
cash. Not sure if my local store has it, but it looks to be
available pretty cheap on amazon. I'd really like a closer up look
at it first though.
Also try eBay.
I got my core books from a used games store for half off.
I'd say you only need the Starfarer's Handbook.
Many of the others are useful if you _want_ to use the DS setting,
but if you are just mining for a ruleset to use for your own setting
the D+D books you have and the SH should give you a good start.
Well I managed to pick up the starfarer's handbook, and all I can say so
far having gotten through the races section is, Wow! That's some quality
work. They kindof fizzled out on the Orcs, but the rest are great
conversions to a sci-fan setting. I like the soulmechs, but they seem like
they should have an LA +1 at first glance.

I read some of the review Arvine linked to. I don't really like the idea
of spending XP to have a ship 'jump' I don't really like 'jumping' anyway,
I prefer hyperspace (I like the ability to have hperspace battles) and the
'helms' of spelljammer. I'm not too sure about super-deadly tech either,
but it does fit my ideas.

I'm thinking right now of raping it for ideas & some of the tech, and
converting to a psionic based setting (using EPsiHB) instead of arcane,
making new races and dumping the fantasy ones, but all that's a lot of
work. The setting as it is is very compelling, I'm tempted to try a strait
campain there before trying to adapt it.
--
Justisaur
http://justisaur.tripod.com/well.htm for my encounter generator, xp
calculator & other files.
Sorcier
2004-04-24 00:19:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justisaur
Post by Sorcier
Post by Justisaur
Post by Sorcier
Define "wacky" better, please.
Hmm. Well wacky is somewhat hard to define.
Well, I was curious if you were going for Zelazny wacky, Farmer
wacky, Xanth wacky, or Mandel wacky. ;)
Xanth is just punnish (yes that's a pun). I think more Pratchet wacky, if
you are looking for a writer.
Pratchet's too "clever little Brit" for me, but at least it points me
to the ballpark you want.
Hm, some of Asprin or more serious Foglio mayhaps also?
Post by Justisaur
Well I managed to pick up the starfarer's handbook, and all I can say so
far having gotten through the races section is, Wow! That's some quality
work.
It is a great read, isn't it?
I usually HATE those first person naratives RPG's use to establish
the settings, but here they pulled it off.
Post by Justisaur
They kindof fizzled out on the Orcs,
Granted.
If you've looked at the Spelljammer Orcs or Warhammer 40k Orks
you likely can find some good ways to expand on them though.
Post by Justisaur
but the rest are great
conversions to a sci-fan setting.
They made me like Drow again. ;)
Post by Justisaur
I like the soulmechs, but they seem like
they should have an LA +1 at first glance.
From memory, needing to be repaired was a big limit when it came out.
Now there are plenty of spells that mend golems and objects so maybe
an LA would be needed .
Post by Justisaur
I read some of the review Arvine linked to. I don't really like the idea
of spending XP to have a ship 'jump'
Hey, don't look at me.
I don't like the idea of spending it to make magic items!
Though it has the same effect here.
It puts a _real_ cost and limit on your mobility.
Is it _worth_ travelling to destination X?
In many cases it's better to buy an item than to make it, so I'd
guess the same would apply for travel.
Post by Justisaur
I don't really like 'jumping' anyway,
I prefer hyperspace (I like the ability to have hperspace battles) and the
'helms' of spelljammer.
I don't like hyperspace battles, but I do like hyperspace.
It's a nice downtime to do RP on ship and account for training,
item creation, whatever.

The helms I like.
You could easily sub in something like Dune navigators or
Trinity teleporters. I can see a DS like setting with ships being
"magic items" that amplify the teleport abilities of a navigator, but
bend it to an "extr-physical" plane type movement.
Like astral travel or, hey, hyperspace!
Post by Justisaur
I'm not too sure about super-deadly tech either,
but it does fit my ideas.
Those concern me, but Death Stars, Berserkers, and just plain big
nukes are a common facet of sci-fi.
Post by Justisaur
I'm thinking right now of raping it for ideas & some of the tech, and
converting to a psionic based setting (using EPsiHB) instead of arcane,
making new races and dumping the fantasy ones, but all that's a lot of
work. The setting as it is is very compelling, I'm tempted to try a strait
campain there before trying to adapt it.
You could run a respectable campaign using the races from the
Galactic Races supplement while dropping the core D+D races...
Mad Hamish
2004-05-01 09:35:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justisaur
Post by Sorcier
Define "wacky" better, please.
Well I managed to pick up the starfarer's handbook, and all I can say so
far having gotten through the races section is, Wow! That's some quality
work. They kindof fizzled out on the Orcs, but the rest are great
conversions to a sci-fan setting. I like the soulmechs, but they seem like
they should have an LA +1 at first glance.
I think they do in Living Dragonstar,
But some of their limiting factors are pretty hefty so I'm not sure if
it's needed.
--
"Hope is replaced by fear and dreams by survival, most of us get by."
Stuart Adamson 1958-2001

Mad Hamish
Hamish Laws
***@iinet.net.au
Robert Singers
2004-04-22 23:30:43 UTC
Permalink
Out from under a rock popped Justisaur and said
Post by Justisaur
Hmm. Well wacky is somewhat hard to define. Silly, and really out
there...
You could also use something like d20 Deadlands to do a Victorian Steampunk
kinda thing if you wanted wacky.
--
Rob Singers
"All your Ron are belong to us"
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere
Tetsubo
2004-04-22 11:33:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justisaur
So I'm thinking on my next campain setting some more... More ideas than I
know what to do with, obvioulsy all of them aren't going to take... Gamma
world, a primal D&D world, d20 modern w/ magic & psionics, a ECL 20 play
the monsters game, etc. etc.
Then I'm thinking. What do my players really want? A. Likes cyberpunk and
the ability to play cyborgs or synthetics, B. likes Traveler, high magic &
psionics, & the weird/wacky shit C. likes Rangers & psionics. D. likes the
really weird/wacky shit. I like Post-Apocolypse, political, military &
mind control/summoning (either psionics or enchanters/summoners).
So I start thinking, I could try to find some traveler d20 stuff, take the
cyberpunk d20 stuff & mix in psionics. But that will leave out the wacky
stuff. So I think, what's whacky? And it dawns on me! Spelljammer! that
will satisfy both the wacky and the traveler esque at the same time.
I start looking into spelljammer for 3e, and realize it's sort of split at
some time. There don't appear to be any spelljammer d20 books, but there's
some conversions. Then there's dragonstar. I dont' really know much about
dragonstar, but it sounds like it's got more tech in it, which would
probably satisfy player A.
Anyone out there that's played dragonstar? Is it still reasonably wacky?
Any good, good balance or is there a lot of broken crap? Would it be
easier to add tech to Spelljammer or Wacky to dragonstar?
I like Dragonstar. Throw in the books Arsenal and factory
(Perpetrated Press?) and you have what you should need.
--
Tetsubo
My page: http://home.comcast.net/~tetsubo/
--------------------------------------
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
-- Anatole France
Simon Lipscomb
2004-04-22 16:10:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justisaur
I start looking into spelljammer for 3e, and realize it's sort of split at
some time. There don't appear to be any spelljammer d20 books, but there's
some conversions. Then there's dragonstar. I dont' really know much about
dragonstar, but it sounds like it's got more tech in it, which would
probably satisfy player A.
Anyone out there that's played dragonstar? Is it still reasonably wacky?
Any good, good balance or is there a lot of broken crap? Would it be
easier to add tech to Spelljammer or Wacky to dragonstar?
You could try mixing in some of Monte Cook's "Chaositech". (you can hunt
out details at montecook.com.

It's basically fantasy cyberpunk stuff, in that its full of wierd
implants and machines of a biotech-y H.R.Giger-y look. Meant to be quite
good, although I don't own it myself. It might appeal to players A and D
though...

Si.
Arivne
2004-04-23 09:09:03 UTC
Permalink
Justisaur <***@removespam.net> wrote:
<snip>
Post by Justisaur
Anyone out there that's played dragonstar? Is it still reasonably wacky?
Any good, good balance or is there a lot of broken crap? Would it be
easier to add tech to Spelljammer or Wacky to dragonstar?
There are several reviews of Dragonstar at RPGnet that might help you:

http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_5705.html
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_6796.html
Dragonstar Starfarer's Handbook (Player's Handbook)

http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_6698.html
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_7773.html
Dragonstar Guide to the Galaxy

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9415.phtml
Dragonstar Player's Companion

http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_5335.html
Dragonstar Preview Module

You can find more reviews here:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF8&q=dragonstar+review+starfarer


Arivne
Håvard Faanes
2004-04-25 21:44:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justisaur
Anyone out there that's played dragonstar? Is it still reasonably wacky?
Any good, good balance or is there a lot of broken crap? Would it be
easier to add tech to Spelljammer or Wacky to dragonstar?
I like both SpellJammer and DragonStar. DragonStar has pretty much
everything that SJ does plus tech. If you're gonna use the tech go with
DS. If you want to have it more on the fantasy side, go with SJ. Your
players sound like theyre up for almost anything though. Sounds like a fun
group :)

Havard
Frank Lazar
2004-05-06 21:34:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justisaur
Anyone out there that's played dragonstar? Is it still reasonably wacky?
Any good, good balance or is there a lot of broken crap? Would it be
easier to add tech to Spelljammer or Wacky to dragonstar?
I've worked with Spelljammer in the old days and I currently play in
the RPGA Living Dragonstar campaign. You can do a mix and match of
the two if you ditch some of the Spelljammer cosmology, namely the
Crystal Spheres and Phlogiston and change spelljamming helms to
operate like Dragonstar starcasting. Doing it the other way would
result in a less optimal fit.

That said, Dragonstar is aiming for a more deadly grittier realism
that SJ ever did. Your outlands Paladin is going to get a nasty
surprise when he runs into his first blaster-wielding Kobold. Whereas
Spelljammer was simply transplanted AD+D, Dragonstar is considerably
more fast paced and deadly when it comes to combat. While there is
room for humor in Dragonstar, firearms combat in the game is no joke.

That said, I like Dragonstar. the backstory setting is logically
tight and offers a lot of room for some serious roleplay. And it's a
great surprise to spring for a high level conventional D+D group when
they open one portal too many and find themselves face to face with
the advance forces of the Dragon Empire.

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