Combat Expertise = fighting defensively?

[Jasin Zujovic]

Is using Combat Expertise considered equivalent to fighting defensively
for abilities that say "when fighting defensively..."?

Specifically, Two-Weapon Defense increases its shield bonus from +1 to +
2 when fighting defensively. Is the bonus increased when using Combat
Expertise?

[Sian Son of Cune]

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Is using Combat Expertise considered equivalent to fighting defensively
for abilities that say "when fighting defensively..."?
Specifically, Two-Weapon Defense increases its shield bonus from +1 to +
2 when fighting defensively. Is the bonus increased when using Combat
Expertise?
--
Jasin Zujovic

By the rules I would say no. I believe fighting defensively is a
seperate action that can be used with Combat Expertise giving the
character an even greater bonus to their AC. One could fight
defensively while using combat expertise and that would trigger
Two-Weapon Defense.

[r***@hotmail.com]

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Is using Combat Expertise considered equivalent to fighting defensively
for abilities that say "when fighting defensively..."?
Specifically, Two-Weapon Defense increases its shield bonus from +1 to +
2 when fighting defensively. Is the bonus increased when using Combat
Expertise?
--
Jasin Zujovic

No, as fighting defensively is precisely defined as something else
(that stacks with CE) but they are pretty close to the same thing.
Longstaffs allow you to avoid flanking if you fight defensively *or*
use at least two points of Combat Expertise. It seems reasonable to
retrofit this sort of wording to older rules like Two Weapon Defense
i.e. any effect that gives you a +2 dodge bonus or more triggers the +2
from TWD, but it is not the RAW.

Mark

[Jasin Zujovic]

Post by r***@hotmail.com

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Is using Combat Expertise considered equivalent to fighting defensively
for abilities that say "when fighting defensively..."?
Specifically, Two-Weapon Defense increases its shield bonus from +1 to +
2 when fighting defensively. Is the bonus increased when using Combat
Expertise?

No, as fighting defensively is precisely defined as something else
(that stacks with CE) but they are pretty close to the same thing.

Is that somewhere in the books, or in a FAQ or something like that?

Combat Expertise refers to fighting defensively in the "Normal:"
paragraph its description, implying that Combat Expertise is just
fighting defensively with a feat to make it work better.

[Justisaur]

Post by Jasin Zujovic

Post by r***@hotmail.com

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Is using Combat Expertise considered equivalent to fighting defensively
for abilities that say "when fighting defensively..."?
Specifically, Two-Weapon Defense increases its shield bonus from +1 to +
2 when fighting defensively. Is the bonus increased when using Combat
Expertise?

No, as fighting defensively is precisely defined as something else
(that stacks with CE) but they are pretty close to the same thing.

Is that somewhere in the books, or in a FAQ or something like that?

In the Combat section of the PHB & SRD

SRD:
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight
defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a -4 penalty on
all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same
round.

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Combat Expertise refers to fighting defensively in the "Normal:"
paragraph its description, implying that Combat Expertise is just
fighting defensively with a feat to make it work better.

Hmm. not sure there. My gut reaction is that it is in addition to
fighting defensively, so you could do both, since there are feats that
reduce fighting defensively to -2/+2 IIRC they require combat
expertise. Combat expertise also limits you to BAB and a 0 BAB there
is no benifit, whereas fighting defensively is just a strait penalty,
which you can do at 1st level with 0 bab taking a -4/+2.

- Justisaur

[Jasin Zujovic]

Post by Justisaur

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Combat Expertise refers to fighting defensively in the "Normal:"
paragraph its description, implying that Combat Expertise is just
fighting defensively with a feat to make it work better.

Hmm. not sure there. My gut reaction is that it is in addition to
fighting defensively, so you could do both, since there are feats that
reduce fighting defensively to -2/+2 IIRC they require combat
expertise.

I think you're wrong here. 5 ranks in tumble gives you -4/+3, but if you
want to do better than that, for example -2/+2, that doesn't require
Combat Expertise, that *is* Combat Expertise.

Post by Justisaur
Combat expertise also limits you to BAB and a 0 BAB there
is no benifit, whereas fighting defensively is just a strait penalty,
which you can do at 1st level with 0 bab taking a -4/+2.

That's true.

[Some Guy]

Post by Justisaur

Post by Jasin Zujovic

Post by r***@hotmail.com

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Is using Combat Expertise considered equivalent to fighting defensively
for abilities that say "when fighting defensively..."?
Specifically, Two-Weapon Defense increases its shield bonus from +1 to +
2 when fighting defensively. Is the bonus increased when using Combat
Expertise?

No, as fighting defensively is precisely defined as something else
(that stacks with CE) but they are pretty close to the same thing.

Is that somewhere in the books, or in a FAQ or something like that?

In the Combat section of the PHB & SRD
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight
defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a -4 penalty on
all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same
round.

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Combat Expertise refers to fighting defensively in the "Normal:"
paragraph its description, implying that Combat Expertise is just
fighting defensively with a feat to make it work better.

Hmm. not sure there. My gut reaction is that it is in addition to
fighting defensively, so you could do both, since there are feats that
reduce fighting defensively to -2/+2 IIRC they require combat
expertise. Combat expertise also limits you to BAB and a 0 BAB there
is no benifit, whereas fighting defensively is just a strait penalty,
which you can do at 1st level with 0 bab taking a -4/+2.
- Justisaur

You can certainly DO both at the same time, but they aren't the same
interchangeable thing, so his primary question (Can you invoke TWD via
CE instead of FD) is clearly "no."

[r***@hotmail.com]

Post by Jasin Zujovic

Post by r***@hotmail.com

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Is using Combat Expertise considered equivalent to fighting defensively
for abilities that say "when fighting defensively..."?
Specifically, Two-Weapon Defense increases its shield bonus from +1 to +
2 when fighting defensively. Is the bonus increased when using Combat
Expertise?

No, as fighting defensively is precisely defined as something else
(that stacks with CE) but they are pretty close to the same thing.

Is that somewhere in the books, or in a FAQ or something like that?
Combat Expertise refers to fighting defensively in the "Normal:"
paragraph its description, implying that Combat Expertise is just
fighting defensively with a feat to make it work better.

Fighting defensively as a standard or full round action is precisely
defined in the PHB: if you allow combat expertise to count as it, you
no longer have to words to describe what is written in the PHB. "Last
round I used Combat Expertise to fight defensively, but this round I'm
additionally going to fight defensively too!". For me the biggest whiff
is that with the other interpreation, using Combat Expertise for -0/+0
would count as fighting defensively. By the book to, fight defensively
you actually have to take at least the -4/+2or3, just like you can't
claim you are fighting defensively while (just) using the Dodge feat or
by casting a Shocking Grasp on the defensive (although like I say,
Longstaff in Complete Adventurer suggests that 2 points of CE is
equaivalent, and if I had to house rule I would broaden that to be
anything that gives you 2 points of dodge bonus)

Post by Jasin Zujovic
--
Jasin Zujovic

[Some Guy]

Post by Jasin Zujovic

Post by r***@hotmail.com

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Is using Combat Expertise considered equivalent to fighting defensively
for abilities that say "when fighting defensively..."?
Specifically, Two-Weapon Defense increases its shield bonus from +1 to +
2 when fighting defensively. Is the bonus increased when using Combat
Expertise?

No, as fighting defensively is precisely defined as something else
(that stacks with CE) but they are pretty close to the same thing.

Is that somewhere in the books, or in a FAQ or something like that?
Combat Expertise refers to fighting defensively in the "Normal:"
paragraph its description, implying that Combat Expertise is just
fighting defensively with a feat to make it work better.

BUt it's not. They are separate things whose AC bonuses, both being
dodge bonuses, stack. See page 140 of the PHB, column 1, paragraph 4.

[Jim Davies]

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Is using Combat Expertise considered equivalent to fighting defensively
for abilities that say "when fighting defensively..."?
Specifically, Two-Weapon Defense increases its shield bonus from +1 to +
2 when fighting defensively. Is the bonus increased when using Combat
Expertise?

I'd say yes. After all, in this case he's taking -n on attacks with
both his weapons, so he ought to get twice the benefit somewhere.

You might insist that the character take at least -2 to attacks to
simulate it fully.

--
Jim or Sarah Davies, but probably Jim

D&D and Star Fleet Battles stuff on http://www.aaargh.org

[Malachias Invictus]

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Is using Combat Expertise considered equivalent to fighting defensively
for abilities that say "when fighting defensively..."?
Specifically, Two-Weapon Defense increases its shield bonus from +1 to +
2 when fighting defensively. Is the bonus increased when using Combat
Expertise?

My ruling would be "yes."

The RAW may differ.

[Some Guy]

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Is using Combat Expertise considered equivalent to fighting defensively
for abilities that say "when fighting defensively..."?

In 3.0, it specifically wasn't. In 3.5, it's less clear but I'd say
probably not.

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Specifically, Two-Weapon Defense increases its shield bonus from +1 to +
2 when fighting defensively. Is the bonus increased when using Combat
Expertise?

No.