3.5e prestige class "stacking" Q

[WDS]

Suppose there was a character who had some levels in Mystic Theurge.
That character then (meeting all the requirements) took a level in some
other prestige class (say Loremaster) that for spells per day grants "+1
level of existing class" (specifically for Loremaster it says "When a
new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day
(and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a
spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige
class."). Can you take the +1 level as Mystic Theurge?

[DougL]

Post by WDS
Suppose there was a character who had some levels in Mystic Theurge.
That character then (meeting all the requirements) took a level in some
other prestige class (say Loremaster) that for spells per day grants "+1
level of existing class" (specifically for Loremaster it says "When a
new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day
(and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a
spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige
class.").  Can you take the +1 level as Mystic Theurge?

I believe there was a FAQ that you could not. MT doesn't actually give
caster levels, it gives two "as if a member of class X" unnamed
bonuses to caster level and spells per level and the like. And that
you therefor need to add to the base class caster level because that's
what actually gives the spells.

DougL

[WDS]

Post by DougL

Post by WDS
Suppose there was a character who had some levels in Mystic Theurge.
That character then (meeting all the requirements) took a level in some
other prestige class (say Loremaster) that for spells per day grants "+1
level of existing class" (specifically for Loremaster it says "When a
new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day
(and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a
spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige
class."). Can you take the +1 level as Mystic Theurge?

I believe there was a FAQ that you could not. MT doesn't actually give
caster levels, it gives two "as if a member of class X" unnamed
bonuses to caster level and spells per level and the like. And that
you therefor need to add to the base class caster level because that's
what actually gives the spells.

Was this exception only for MT or for all prestige classes that "give"
caster levels?

[WDS]

Post by WDS

Post by DougL
I believe there was a FAQ that you could not. MT doesn't actually give
caster levels, it gives two "as if a member of class X" unnamed
bonuses to caster level and spells per level and the like. And that
you therefor need to add to the base class caster level because that's
what actually gives the spells.

Was this exception only for MT or for all prestige classes that "give"
caster levels?

I just looked in the 6/30/2008 FAQ (the last official one I believe) and
I see no mention of this.

[Loren Pechtel]

Post by WDS

Post by DougL
I believe there was a FAQ that you could not. MT doesn't actually give
caster levels, it gives two "as if a member of class X" unnamed
bonuses to caster level and spells per level and the like. And that
you therefor need to add to the base class caster level because that's
what actually gives the spells.

Was this exception only for MT or for all prestige classes that "give"
caster levels?

I would interpret it to apply to any class that grants +1 to existing
class abilities.

[Hadsil]

Post by WDS
Suppose there was a character who had some levels in Mystic Theurge.
That character then (meeting all the requirements) took a level in some
other prestige class (say Loremaster) that for spells per day grants "+1
level of existing class" (specifically for Loremaster it says "When a
new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day
(and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a
spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige
class.").  Can you take the +1 level as Mystic Theurge?

No

Mystic Theurge does not give you its own spellcasting progression.
There is no Mystic Theurge spell list. Mystic Theurge does not give
you the ability to cast spells.

Gerald Katz

[Matthew Miller]

Post by Hadsil
Mystic Theurge does not give you its own spellcasting progression.
There is no Mystic Theurge spell list. Mystic Theurge does not give
you the ability to cast spells.

That said, Mystic Theurge is already weak enough that if someone wanted to
do this, I think I'd rule that they could.

[Hadsil]

Post by Matthew Miller

Post by Hadsil
Mystic Theurge does not give you its own spellcasting progression.
There is no Mystic Theurge spell list.  Mystic Theurge does not give
you the ability to cast spells.

That said, Mystic Theurge is already weak enough that if someone wanted to
do this, I think I'd rule that they could.
--
Matthew Miller

If you use wizard/druid spellcasting, you could go into Arcane
Hieorphant first for its benefits along with the double spellcasting
increase then go into Mystic Theurge to continue the double
spellcasting to level 20.

Fochlucan Lyrist/Mystic Theurge works as well though it's a real
bitch. You have to really, really not care about having 8th or 9th
level spells before level 20, even though only in druid since bards
top at 6th.

Gerald Katz

[Rast]

Post by WDS
Suppose there was a character who had some levels in Mystic Theurge.
That character then (meeting all the requirements) took a level in some
other prestige class (say Loremaster) that for spells per day grants "+1
level of existing class" (specifically for Loremaster it says "When a
new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day
(and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a
spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige
class."). Can you take the +1 level as Mystic Theurge?

No, definitely not. Regardless of how you could try to twist the
wording, not even the C.O. boards people would expect this to work with
any sane DM, or even most crazy/retarded ones.

MT does not directly grant spells per day -- there is no spells per day
table such as is found in base spellcasting classes or various PrCs which
include a spells per day table. Your Loremaster increase must apply to a
SINGLE such table which you already have. Likewise, MT (which has
essentially the same wording), advances you on TWO DIFFERENT spells per
day tables which you already have.

[Matthew Miller]

Post by Rast
No, definitely not. Regardless of how you could try to twist the
wording, not even the C.O. boards people would expect this to work with
any sane DM, or even most crazy/retarded ones.

The player has clearly already fallen off the character optimization bus.

(I guess the warning sign would be if they are using Ur-Priest to get the
divine prereq for Mystic Theurge... they're probably up to no good.)

Mystic Theurge makes you suffer by taking away your high-level spells, not
just from an end-game point of view, but at every point along the way,
you're below what your more-focused peers can do. Okay, sure, price for
flexibility, etc. -- but on top of that, you're gonna be seriously
dual-attribute dependent. I think by now we basically all know that it's a
weak, flavorless class.

And, while Loremaster has some of the best flavor of the core PrCs (not
saying much), the special abilities aren't great. (Oooh! Two bonus
languages! More first-level spells! Three hit points!). And it makes you pay
basically all your feats as prereqs which, including the *very*
un-"optimized" skill focus (knowledge).


So, while it's clearly not RAW, I'm pretty sure I'd allow it, unless it were
part of some larger broken-combo scheme, in which case we'd have a little
talk.

[DougL]

Post by Matthew Miller

No, definitely not.  Regardless of how you could try to twist the
wording, not even the C.O. boards people would expect this to work with
any sane DM, or even most crazy/retarded ones.

The player has clearly already fallen off the character optimization bus.
(I guess the warning sign would be if they are using Ur-Priest to get the
divine prereq for Mystic Theurge... they're probably up to no good.)
Mystic Theurge makes you suffer by taking away your high-level spells, not
just from an end-game point of view, but at every point along the way,
you're below what your more-focused peers can do. Okay, sure, price for
flexibility, etc. -- but on top of that, you're gonna be seriously
dual-attribute dependent. I think by now we basically all know that it's a
weak, flavorless class.
And, while Loremaster has some of the best flavor of the core PrCs (not
saying much), the special abilities aren't great. (Oooh! Two bonus
languages! More first-level spells! Three hit points!). And it makes you pay
basically all your feats as prereqs which, including the *very*
un-"optimized" skill focus (knowledge).

Huh? The only prereq that hurts a Wizard AT ALL for Loremaster is the
knowledge focus, and a Loremaster GETS MORE FEATS!

IIRC it's fairly trivial to make a loremaster wizard that is almost
globally better than a straight wizard (the familiar is worse, IIRC
THAT'S IT, that's the only cost). And the benefits can be quite nice.
The only reason Loremaster isn't a "must have" for ALL optimized
wizards is that there are even better unballanced prestige classes out
there.

But if building core only, an optimized wizard should pretty well
always take it. It's the strongest prestige class in core and was the
precedent for all the broken full caster progression prestige classes
that followed.

DougL

[Hadsil]

Post by DougL

Post by Matthew Miller

No, definitely not.  Regardless of how you could try to twist the
wording, not even the C.O. boards people would expect this to work with
any sane DM, or even most crazy/retarded ones.

The player has clearly already fallen off the character optimization bus.
(I guess the warning sign would be if they are using Ur-Priest to get the
divine prereq for Mystic Theurge... they're probably up to no good.)
Mystic Theurge makes you suffer by taking away your high-level spells, not
just from an end-game point of view, but at every point along the way,
you're below what your more-focused peers can do. Okay, sure, price for
flexibility, etc. -- but on top of that, you're gonna be seriously
dual-attribute dependent. I think by now we basically all know that it's a
weak, flavorless class.
And, while Loremaster has some of the best flavor of the core PrCs (not
saying much), the special abilities aren't great. (Oooh! Two bonus
languages! More first-level spells! Three hit points!). And it makes you pay
basically all your feats as prereqs which, including the *very*
un-"optimized" skill focus (knowledge).

Huh? The only prereq that hurts a Wizard AT ALL for Loremaster is the
knowledge focus, and a Loremaster GETS MORE FEATS!
IIRC it's fairly trivial to make a loremaster wizard that is almost
globally better than a straight wizard (the familiar is worse, IIRC
THAT'S IT, that's the only cost). And the benefits can be quite nice.
The only reason Loremaster isn't a "must have" for ALL optimized
wizards is that there are even better unballanced prestige classes out
there.
But if building core only, an optimized wizard should pretty well
always take it. It's the strongest prestige class in core and was the
precedent for all the broken full caster progression prestige classes
that followed.
DougL

Skill Focus (Knowledge) isn't a terrible feat. Knowledge skills are
only as useless as the DM makes them. Knowledge skills can be used to
allow out of character knowledge of stuff to be known and exploited in
character, such as monster statistics.

Gerald Katz

[Matthew Miller]

Post by DougL
Huh? The only prereq that hurts a Wizard AT ALL for Loremaster is the
knowledge focus, and a Loremaster GETS MORE FEATS!

I didn't mean that they were awful choices, but they have to be metamagic
feats, which limits the usefulness for trying to create a broken "optimized"
character.

My point is that making its spellcaster levels stack with mystic theurge is
unlikely to be game-breaking -- or even really pushing against things.

[Peter Knutsen]

On 08/09/2010 01:56, Rast wrote:
[...]

Post by Rast
MT does not directly grant spells per day -- there is no spells per day
table such as is found in base spellcasting classes or various PrCs which
include a spells per day table. Your Loremaster increase must apply to a
SINGLE such table which you already have. Likewise, MT (which has
essentially the same wording), advances you on TWO DIFFERENT spells per
day tables which you already have.

Can it be two different Arcane spells-per-day tables, e.g. Sorcerer and
Wizards, or two different Divine spells-per-day tables, e.g. Cleric and
Druid, or does it have to be one Arcane and one Divine?

[Harold Groot]

On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 05:56:10 +0200, Peter Knutsen

Post by Peter Knutsen
[...]

Post by Rast
MT does not directly grant spells per day -- there is no spells per day
table such as is found in base spellcasting classes or various PrCs which
include a spells per day table. Your Loremaster increase must apply to a
SINGLE such table which you already have. Likewise, MT (which has
essentially the same wording), advances you on TWO DIFFERENT spells per
day tables which you already have.

Can it be two different Arcane spells-per-day tables, e.g. Sorcerer and
Wizards, or two different Divine spells-per-day tables, e.g. Cleric and
Druid, or does it have to be one Arcane and one Divine?
Peter Knutsen

Mystic Theurge is one arcane (any), one divine (any).

However, if you want Wizard/Sorcerer (or Wizard/Bard) there is the
Ultimate Magus PrC in Complete Mage. You need Spontaneous casting of
1st level arcane spells and prepared casting of 2nd level arcane
spells, Kn: Arcana 4 and Spellcraft: 8. There are 3 levels where you
advance only the lower of your two arcane classes (if it's a tie, you
choose). So if you started at Sorcerer 2 Wizard 3 (or Sorcerer 1
Wizard 4 - you need 5 total levels to get the Spellcraft: 8
requirement) and took 10 levels of Ultimate Magus you'd have the
spellcasting of Sorcerer 11/Wizard 11. The dedicated Wizard 15 has 8th
level spells to your 6th level top. The general rule is Sorcerer for
blasting stuff and Wizard for general purpose stuff and you can hold
your own - like Mystic Theurge, it's not considered a particularly
powerful PrC but it can have great flexibility. Your caster level
pretty well keeps up with the dedicated wizard - you get bonuses,
topping out at +4 at 10th level UM. You can also sacrifice spell
slots a few times per day to apply metamagic feats (only to spells of
1/2 your UM level or lower, and they can't have other metamagic feats
on them already). You also get bonus Metamagic Feats at 5th and 9th
level.

[Hadsil]

Post by Peter Knutsen
[...]

Post by Rast
MT does not directly grant spells per day -- there is no spells per day
table such as is found in base spellcasting classes or various PrCs which
include a spells per day table.  Your Loremaster increase must apply to a
SINGLE such table which you already have.  Likewise, MT (which has
essentially the same wording), advances you on TWO DIFFERENT spells per
day tables which you already have.

Can it be two different Arcane spells-per-day tables, e.g. Sorcerer and
Wizards, or two different Divine spells-per-day tables, e.g. Cleric and
Druid, or does it have to be one Arcane and one Divine?
--
Peter Knutsen

Has to be one arcane/one divine. The Ultimate Magus prestige class is
for your wizard/sorcerer multiclassers. It's actually a decent
prestige class. You can use Practice Spellcaster feat to trick the
prestige class into allowing you to get 9th level spells as a wizard
by 20th level because you can make your sorcerer caster level higher
than your wizard caster level despite wizard spellcasting granting you
higher level spells. Sorcerer will top at 5th or 6th, but that's not
too bad for some extra spellcasting. Besides, you cannibalize the
sorcerer spell slots for metamagic on your wizard spells anyway.

Gerald Katz

[Harold Groot]

Post by Hadsil
Has to be one arcane/one divine. The Ultimate Magus prestige class is
for your wizard/sorcerer multiclassers. It's actually a decent
prestige class. You can use Practice Spellcaster feat to trick the
prestige class into allowing you to get 9th level spells as a wizard
by 20th level because you can make your sorcerer caster level higher
than your wizard caster level despite wizard spellcasting granting you
higher level spells. Sorcerer will top at 5th or 6th, but that's not
too bad for some extra spellcasting. Besides, you cannibalize the
sorcerer spell slots for metamagic on your wizard spells anyway.
Gerald Katz

While the Practiced Spellcaster trick works by the letter of the UM
rules, some DMs consider it against the spirit of the UM rules and
disallow it - so it's worth discussing this with your DM at the start
of the process if you think you might want to go that way.

[Harold Groot]

Post by WDS
Suppose there was a character who had some levels in Mystic Theurge.
That character then (meeting all the requirements) took a level in some
other prestige class (say Loremaster) that for spells per day grants "+1
level of existing class" (specifically for Loremaster it says "When a
new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day
(and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a
spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige
class."). Can you take the +1 level as Mystic Theurge?

No.

[Ubiquitous]

Post by WDS
Suppose there was a character who had some levels in Mystic Theurge.
That character then (meeting all the requirements) took a level in some
other prestige class (say Loremaster) that for spells per day grants
"+1 level of existing class" (specifically for Loremaster it says "When
a new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per
day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level
in a spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige
class."). Can you take the +1 level as Mystic Theurge?

Of course not!

[Rick Pikul]

Post by WDS
Suppose there was a character who had some levels in Mystic Theurge.
That character then (meeting all the requirements) took a level in some
other prestige class (say Loremaster) that for spells per day grants "+1
level of existing class" (specifically for Loremaster it says "When a
new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day
(and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a
spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige
class."). Can you take the +1 level as Mystic Theurge?

I'd allow it.

I'd also point out that "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" is _not_
spells per day, caster lever or spells known. Thus making the choice a
rather poor one.

[Ubiquitous]

Post by Rick Pikul

Post by WDS
Suppose there was a character who had some levels in Mystic Theurge.
That character then (meeting all the requirements) took a level in some
other prestige class (say Loremaster) that for spells per day grants "+1
level of existing class" (specifically for Loremaster it says "When a
new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day
(and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a
spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige
class."). Can you take the +1 level as Mystic Theurge?

I'd allow it.
I'd also point out that "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" is _not_
spells per day, caster lever or spells known.

Yes, it is, unless you aren't making yourself clear.

[Rick Pikul]

{Foomph... Trying to daisy chain spellcasting boosts through other PrCs.}

Post by Ubiquitous

Post by Rick Pikul
I'd allow it.
I'd also point out that "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" is _not_
spells per day, caster lever or spells known.

Yes, it is, unless you aren't making yourself clear.

This is a not too serious way of rejecting it: The +1 level that many
spellcaster PrCs give is specifically restricted to only apply to three
things, (spells/day, caster level and spells known), and not to anything
else granted by the class boosted. The ability to increase your effective
level as a spellcaster of another class is not one of those three things,
so the daisy chain wouldn't work anyway.

My post was kind of like saying: "Sure you can borrow my car to go to the
store, just remember that it's out of gas and doesn't have wheels at the
moment."