Barkskin & Amulet?

Justisaur, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...

Post by Justisaur
Does Barkskin & an Amulet of Natural Armor stack? They are both enhancement
bonuses, I thought i read that enhancement bonuses stack somewhere, but
don't remember for sure, and can't seem to find it.

Aren't they both natural armor bonuses? Or are they worded as
enhancement bonuses to your natural armor bonus?

In any event, the only enhancement bonuses that stack are those of armor
and shields.

Niilo Paasivirta

2004-03-02 05:10:36 UTC

Justisaur, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...

Nope, they don't stack - only the better one applies (see "Combining Magical
Effects"). Generally, two bonuses of the same type do not stack.

Enhancement bonus to natural armor does stack with racial natural armor.

--
Niilo Paasivirta E-mail: ***@iki.fi URL: http://www.iki.fi/%7Enp/

Silveraxe

2004-03-02 13:16:56 UTC

Post by Niilo Paasivirta
Enhancement bonus to natural armor does stack with racial natural armor.

That must be a 3.5E thing, right?
'Cause in 3E, barkskin granted a natural armor bonus to AC, not an
enhancement bonus to natural armor.

Now how about barkskin and the lycanthropes' natural armor bonus to
AC?
Do they stack?
Yes, I HAVE read the SRD, and it says
"Armor Class: The base creature's natural armor bonus increases by +2
in all forms." Does the 3.5E MM say more?
Is that "natural" natural armor, or an enhancement to natural armor?

Silveraxe

Nockermensch

2004-03-02 19:35:31 UTC

Post by Silveraxe

Post by Niilo Paasivirta
Enhancement bonus to natural armor does stack with racial natural armor.

That must be a 3.5E thing, right?
'Cause in 3E, barkskin granted a natural armor bonus to AC, not an
enhancement bonus to natural armor.

Yes, it's a 3.5e thing. A nice thing, indeed. For now the primary
users of barkskin (druids) can benefit from it while on wild shape.

Post by Silveraxe
Now how about barkskin and the lycanthropes' natural armor bonus to
AC?
Do they stack?
Yes, I HAVE read the SRD, and it says
"Armor Class: The base creature's natural armor bonus increases by +2
in all forms." Does the 3.5E MM say more?
Is that "natural" natural armor, or an enhancement to natural armor?

I'd say natural. IIRC all enhancement come from spells or magic items.
With lycantropes you're applying a template, (effectively changing the
creature natural values, as a half-dragon who just has a naturally
harder hide).

--
@ @ Nockermensch, at the same time pointing that druids with a monk's
belt can have very good ACs.

Presto

2004-03-03 12:22:22 UTC

Post by Silveraxe

Post by Niilo Paasivirta
Enhancement bonus to natural armor does stack with racial natural armor.

That must be a 3.5E thing, right?
'Cause in 3E, barkskin granted a natural armor bonus to AC, not an
enhancement bonus to natural armor.
Now how about barkskin and the lycanthropes' natural armor bonus to
AC?
Do they stack?
Yes, I HAVE read the SRD, and it says
"Armor Class: The base creature's natural armor bonus increases by +2
in all forms." Does the 3.5E MM say more?
Is that "natural" natural armor, or an enhancement to natural armor?

The way that's worded, I don't see the word "bonus" anywhere; it just says
it "increases". I'd allow it.
--
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Donald Tsang

2004-03-02 06:44:21 UTC

Post by Jeff Heikkinen
Justisaur, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...

Aren't they both natural armor bonuses? Or are they worded as
enhancement bonuses to your natural armor bonus?
In any event, the only enhancement bonuses that stack are those of armor
and shields.

In 3.5e, Armor grants Armor Bonuses, and Shields grant Shield Bonuses
(to AC), so there's no stacking there at all. And the other 3.0
exception (missile weapons and ammo) has been overturned in 3.5
(which is kinda annoying, but I won't go into that here).

As to the original question, just reading the Barkskin description
would give you your answer:

"The enhancement bonus provided by barkskin stacks with the
target's natural armor bonus, but not with other enhancement
bonuses to natural armor. A creature without natural armor has
an effective natural armor bonus of +0, much as a character
wearing only normal clothing has an armor bonus of +0."

Are we sure that was the real Justisaur who posted the original question?
He always seemed a little smarter than that...

--
Donald, not yet to the point of saying "RTFM", but getting ever closer...

Jeff Heikkinen

2004-03-02 22:18:37 UTC

Donald Tsang, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...

Post by Jeff Heikkinen
Justisaur, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...

Aren't they both natural armor bonuses? Or are they worded as
enhancement bonuses to your natural armor bonus?
In any event, the only enhancement bonuses that stack are those of armor
and shields.

In 3.5e, Armor grants Armor Bonuses, and Shields grant Shield Bonuses
(to AC), so there's no stacking there at all.

There is when they're both magical.

You know, there's this thing called the Principle of Charity. It
basically says you should read other people's statements in the way that
makes sense, not the borderline-insulting way you have. I am *NOT* a
moron, thanks.

Donald Tsang

2004-03-02 22:30:08 UTC

Post by Jeff Heikkinen
Donald Tsang, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...

Post by Jeff Heikkinen
In any event, the only enhancement bonuses that stack are those of armor
and shields.

In 3.5e, Armor grants Armor Bonuses, and Shields grant Shield Bonuses
(to AC), so there's no stacking there at all.

There is when they're both magical.
You know, there's this thing called the Principle of Charity. It
basically says you should read other people's statements in the way that
makes sense, not the borderline-insulting way you have. I am *NOT* a
moron, thanks.

You may not be a moron, but you're wrong.

Armor grants armor bonuses; magical armor has an enhancement bonus to
armor bonus to armor class.

Shields grant shield bonuses; a magical shield has an enhancement bonus
to shield bonus to armor class.

In no way do the enhancement bonuses stack, since they're not at a
"comparable level", just as an enhancement bonus to strength can
yield higher strength bonus to damage, but that has nothing to do
with a weapon's enhancement bonus to damage either.

The bonuses to armor class stack, since they're of different types.
It doesn't matter how those bonuses to armor class were derived;
one is an "armor bonus" and one is a "shield bonus", and these
different bonus types stack.

Thinking about it as "armor and shield enhancement bonuses stack" leads
to wrong conclusions in all sorts of ways.

Donald

Bradd W. Szonye

2004-03-02 22:57:13 UTC

Post by Jeff Heikkinen

Post by Jeff Heikkinen
In any event, the only enhancement bonuses that stack are those of
armor and shields.

In 3.5e, Armor grants Armor Bonuses, and Shields grant Shield Bonuses
(to AC), so there's no stacking there at all.

Incorrect. The armor and shield bonuses do stack. It looks like you're
forgetting that it's still called "stacking" when you add two different
kinds of bonus together.

Post by Jeff Heikkinen
There is when they're both magical.
You know, there's this thing called the Principle of Charity. It
basically says you should read other people's statements in the way
that makes sense, not the borderline-insulting way you have. I am
*NOT* a moron, thanks.

Yes, they do. You eventually add both of them to AC, which is called
"stacking" in D&D. In this case, they stack despite the fact that they
have the same name, because they don't *directly* modify AC. Instead,
they modify the armor and shield bonuses, which do stack, so they
indirectly stack when figuring AC.

Post by Donald Tsang
Thinking about it as "armor and shield enhancement bonuses stack"
leads to wrong conclusions in all sorts of ways.

But that is a reasonable way to think about it.

--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

Donald Tsang

2004-03-03 00:18:08 UTC

Post by Jeff Heikkinen
In any event, the only enhancement bonuses that stack are those of
armor and shields.

In 3.5e, Armor grants Armor Bonuses, and Shields grant Shield Bonuses
(to AC), so there's no stacking there at all.

Incorrect. The armor and shield bonuses do stack. It looks like you're
forgetting that it's still called "stacking" when you add two different
kinds of bonus together.

There's no stacking of enhancement bonuses there at all, since the
enhancement bonuses cannot (and should not) be added directly together,
any more than "+2 Enhancement Bonus to Strength" and "+1 Enhancement
Bonus to Damage" cannot meaningfully be added together.

Post by Donald Tsang
Armor grants armor bonuses; magical armor has an enhancement bonus to
armor bonus to armor class.
Shields grant shield bonuses; a magical shield has an enhancement
bonus to shield bonus to armor class.
In no way do the enhancement bonuses stack ....

Yes, they do. You eventually add both of them to AC, which is called
"stacking" in D&D.

You shouldn't refer to this as "stacking", since those numbers don't
directly add together. You clearly know this, and yet are encouraging
wrong thinking in others...

Post by Bradd W. Szonye
so they indirectly stack when figuring AC.

"Indirectly stack" -> "doesn't really stack". Referring to it as
stacking just tends to confuse people.

Post by Donald Tsang
Thinking about it as "armor and shield enhancement bonuses stack"
leads to wrong conclusions in all sorts of ways.

But that is a reasonable way to think about it.

No, no, a thousand times no. That kind of thinking leads to questions
like "if shield and armor enhancement bonuses stack, why don't
Amulet of Natural Armor and Barkskin?" That was a flaw in 3e that
they corrected in 3.5e; please don't break it again.

Donald

Bradd W. Szonye

2004-03-03 00:28:14 UTC

Post by Jeff Heikkinen
In any event, the only enhancement bonuses that stack are those of
armor and shields.

In 3.5e, Armor grants Armor Bonuses, and Shields grant Shield Bonuses
(to AC), so there's no stacking there at all.

Incorrect. The armor and shield bonuses do stack. It looks like you're
forgetting that it's still called "stacking" when you add two different
kinds of bonus together.

There's no stacking of enhancement bonuses there at all ....

OK, but it looked like you were saying that there's no stacking there,
full stop. An armor bonus certainly does stack with a shield bonus. And
if you apply enhancement bonuses to each, then those enhancement bonuses
do stack indirectly.

Bonuses with the same bonus type usually overlap when you add them
directly, but they always (AFAICT) stack when you add them indirectly.

Post by Donald Tsang
In no way do the enhancement bonuses stack ....

Yes, they do. You eventually add both of them to AC, which is called
"stacking" in D&D.

You shouldn't refer to this as "stacking", since those numbers don't
directly add together.

So what?

You clearly know this, and yet are encouraging wrong thinking in
others...

If these hypothetical others can't tell the difference between direct
and indirect modifiers, they have no hope of getting it right anyway.

Post by Bradd W. Szonye
so they indirectly stack when figuring AC.

"Indirectly stack" -> "doesn't really stack". Referring to it as
stacking just tends to confuse people.

It's the indirect element that makes it confusing, not what you call it.

Post by Donald Tsang
Thinking about it as "armor and shield enhancement bonuses stack"
leads to wrong conclusions in all sorts of ways.

But that is a reasonable way to think about it.

No, no, a thousand times no. That kind of thinking leads to questions
like "if shield and armor enhancement bonuses stack, why don't Amulet
of Natural Armor and Barkskin?"

But those two do stack, based on what I've seen in this thread. One
provides a natural armor bonus, and the other provides an enhancement
bonus to natural armor.

That was a flaw in 3e that they corrected in 3.5e; please don't break
it again.

I'm not breaking anything.

--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

Donald Tsang

2004-03-03 01:54:10 UTC

Post by Donald Tsang
No, no, a thousand times no. That kind of thinking leads to questions
like "if shield and armor enhancement bonuses stack, why don't Amulet
of Natural Armor and Barkskin?"

But those two do stack, based on what I've seen in this thread. One
provides a natural armor bonus, and the other provides an enhancement
bonus to natural armor.

Incorrect; both provide Enhancement Bonuses to Natural Armor (in fact,
the former has the latter as a spell prerequisite). Please read the
thread more carefully (and RT*M)

Donald

Bradd W. Szonye

2004-03-03 02:10:36 UTC

Post by Donald Tsang
No, no, a thousand times no. That kind of thinking leads to questions
like "if shield and armor enhancement bonuses stack, why don't Amulet
of Natural Armor and Barkskin?"

But those two do stack, based on what I've seen in this thread. One
provides a natural armor bonus, and the other provides an enhancement
bonus to natural armor.

Incorrect; both provide Enhancement Bonuses to Natural Armor (in fact,
the former has the latter as a spell prerequisite). Please read the
thread more carefully (and RT*M)

Mea culpa. (But note that "has the latter as a spell prerequisite"
doesn't really mean anything.)

--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

Wayne Shaw

2004-03-02 16:49:10 UTC

Post by Jeff Heikkinen
Justisaur, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...

Aren't they both natural armor bonuses? Or are they worded as
enhancement bonuses to your natural armor bonus?

I believe barkskin is the latter these days but the amulet is the
former.

Michael Scott Brown

2004-03-02 07:30:28 UTC

You are being an idiot. The stacking rules should be part of your
very *blood* by now, having used the system this long.

-Michael

Justisaur

2004-03-03 01:10:49 UTC

Post by Justisaur

Post by Justisaur
Does Barkskin & an Amulet of Natural Armor stack? They are both

enhancement

Post by Justisaur
bonuses, I thought i read that enhancement bonuses stack somewhere,
but don't remember for sure, and can't seem to find it.

You are being an idiot. The stacking rules should be part of your
very *blood* by now, having used the system this long.

Brain fart - please excuse the stupidity.

--
Justisaur
http://justisaur.tripod.com/well.htm for my encounter generator, xp
calculator & other files.

Malachias Invictus

2004-03-02 23:19:06 UTC