Discussion:
3.5 Cloudkill - Ouch!
(too old to reply)
Michael Scott Brown
22 years ago
Permalink
That traditional 1d10 hp damage is now 1d4 *Con Damage* to 6+ HD
opponents (save for half)....

The spread's been reduced to 20, and its center of emission drifts away
from the caster at 10, so if you can cast it in confined quarters where your
prey cannot escape it can inflict only up to 4d4 Con damage in passing
over.... (shouldn't that "move away from you" rule for cloudkill abate if
the cloud is confined in a room? Where would it go?).


-Michael
SVaugh1
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Michael Scott Brown
That traditional 1d10 hp damage is now 1d4 *Con Damage* to 6+ HD
opponents (save for half)....
The spread's been reduced to 20, and its center of emission drifts away
from the caster at 10, so if you can cast it in confined quarters where your
prey cannot escape it can inflict only up to 4d4 Con damage in passing
over.... (shouldn't that "move away from you" rule for cloudkill abate if
the cloud is confined in a room? Where would it go?)
Ouch, indeed. I guess this does make sense if you consider the cloud poison
gas. But this spell just got a lot more popular.
Certic
22 years ago
Permalink
...
--------
Cloudkill has always been one of my favourite spells ever since 1st ed...

--
You are Not entering Chapeltown.
We walk on two legs, the one abstract
the other surreal.
'All you have to do is tell them they are being
attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger."
-Reichsmarschall Hermann Goering on war
--
Justin Watts
22 years ago
Permalink
one of my favorite tactics was to cast create fog and have the rogue
halfling, Sarf, played by my brother say "Not CLOUDKILL again, in the
language of whatever we were facing. He took 8 languages so that would be
effective.
Stephenls
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Justin Watts
one of my favorite tactics was to cast create fog and have the rogue
halfling, Sarf, played by my brother say "Not CLOUDKILL again, in the
language of whatever we were facing. He took 8 languages so that would be
effective.
This made me laugh so hard that I had to stand up and walk it off. I'm
still giggling as I type this.

You rule. If you accept laugh point, take one from me.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"Go then. There are other worlds than these."
SVaugh1
22 years ago
Permalink
...
I've always liked it too. Now I REALLY like it. Off topic, the place where
Cloudkill really rocked was the old gold box D&D computer games.
Alex Johnson
22 years ago
Permalink
...
Not for me. I never used it. I tried about a dozen times and couldn't
use it without hitting myself or my companions. I finally mapped out
the shape and size and location, and it turned out only to be usefull if
you cast at a single location, and your mage is totally exposed with no
characters to hold off monsters.
--
My words are my own. They represent no other; they belong to no other.
Don't read anything into them or you may be required to compensate me
for violation of copyright. (I do not speak for my employer.)
SVaugh1
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Alex Johnson
Not for me. I never used it. I tried about a dozen times and couldn't
use it without hitting myself or my companions. I finally mapped out
the shape and size and location, and it turned out only to be usefull if
you cast at a single location, and your mage is totally exposed with no
characters to hold off monsters.
--
I always found it worked to cast it in an unoccupied doorway. Most of the
monsters wouldn't run into the cloud and your party could stand back and
slaughter them with missle weapons.
Michael Scott Brown
22 years ago
Permalink
...
Well, it certainly makes it useful again (1d10 hp/round is tiddly-winks
for high level characters ordinarily) - but don't get *too* excited about
it; because it drifts away from the caster, and because it's only 20'
radius, generally speaking the most you can expect it to be affecting anyone
is one or two rounds; and 2d4 con damage with saves for half at high level
is probably about 1-4 points of con. However, if you can Hold or Web
someone and then drop this baby on them ... ow, ow, ow.

-Michael
Malachias Invictus
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Michael Scott Brown
Well, it certainly makes it useful again (1d10 hp/round is
tiddly-winks
Post by Michael Scott Brown
for high level characters ordinarily) - but don't get *too* excited about
it; because it drifts away from the caster, and because it's only 20'
radius, generally speaking the most you can expect it to be affecting anyone
is one or two rounds; and 2d4 con damage with saves for half at high level
is probably about 1-4 points of con. However, if you can Hold or Web
someone and then drop this baby on them ... ow, ow, ow.
Yes, this is definitely a "lockdown and drop the bomb"-type spell. Of
course, if you have a fiend or Half-Fiend grapple the target, and keep him
in the are of effect...

My players are *really* not going to like encounters with fiends and
spellcasters ;-)
--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
SVaugh1
22 years ago
Permalink
What happens to the "move away from you" rule if there's nowhere for the cloud
to go? Does it just dissipate? Otherwise, it's great for fumigating small
rooms.
Bradd W. Szonye
22 years ago
Permalink
This is a very good question. Common sense suggests that with
no-where to go, the cloud should stop, but even then, do we stop its
motion when the spread hits a wall, or when the *center* of the spread
hits a wall?
Probably when the origin hits the wall. Because of line of effect, the
origin can't pass the wall, but since it's an emanation, there's no
problem with the origin going *up to* the wall. That still leaves a
question, though: Does the origin stop moving at that point, or does the
whole cloud disappear when the origin tries to break line of effect?
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.concentric.net/~Bradds
Michael Scott Brown
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Malachias Invictus
Yes, this is definitely a "lockdown and drop the bomb"-type spell. Of
course, if you have a fiend or Half-Fiend grapple the target, and keep him
in the are of effect...
<laughter>
A Dwarven comrade would be able to tough it out as well; a 10th level
Dwarven Fighter likely has 20 Con and a +7 base Fortitude save, +2 for
poison, +2 for spell (hmm. Do you get both for magic that is poison?), +5
for his con, netting +16 without even the most basic Item of resistance or
further Con stat boosting; he can probably take it!
Post by Malachias Invictus
My players are *really* not going to like encounters with fiends and
spellcasters ;-)
As opposed to all those times they ate magic missiles and *liked* it?
<wink>

-Michael
Seebs
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Michael Scott Brown
A Dwarven comrade would be able to tough it out as well; a 10th level
Dwarven Fighter likely has 20 Con and a +7 base Fortitude save, +2 for
poison, +2 for spell (hmm. Do you get both for magic that is poison?),
Well, you have both bonuses, so you have two +2 racial bonuses.

Therefore, your modifier is +2.

-s
--
Copyright 2003, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / ***@plethora.net
http://www.seebs.net/log/ - YA blog. http://www.seebs.net/ - homepage.
C/Unix wizard, pro-commerce radical, spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon!
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Michael Scott Brown
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Seebs
Post by Michael Scott Brown
A Dwarven comrade would be able to tough it out as well; a 10th level
Dwarven Fighter likely has 20 Con and a +7 base Fortitude save, +2 for
poison, +2 for spell (hmm. Do you get both for magic that is poison?),
Well, you have both bonuses, so you have two +2 racial bonuses.
Therefore, your modifier is +2.
Ahah!

-Michael
Malachias Invictus
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Malachias Invictus
Yes, this is definitely a "lockdown and drop the bomb"-type spell. Of
course, if you have a fiend or Half-Fiend grapple the target, and keep
him in the area of effect...
<laughter>
A Dwarven comrade would be able to tough it out as well; a 10th level
Dwarven Fighter likely has 20 Con and a +7 base Fortitude save, +2 for
poison, +2 for spell (hmm. Do you get both for magic that is poison?),
No, because they are both named bonuses (racial).
+5 for his con, netting +16 without even the most basic Item of resistance
or
further Con stat boosting; he can probably take it!
Yeah, those Dwarves are tough lil bastards. I am likely going to make my
next character a Dwarven Fighter. Interestingly enough, a 1st level Dwarven
Fighter can take the Roll With It feat from Savage Species if he has a 20
Constitution and takes Toughness as his bonus feat. This will give him DR
2/- at 1st, and DR 4/- at 3rd, if he takes the feat again. I assume that
this cannot be taken as a bonus Fighter feat (actually, I do not see any
indication that *any* of the feats in Savage Species can be taken as Fighter
bonus feats - is there a list?). Since the bonus feats a Fighter gets are
usually sufficient to provide enough martial prowess to be effective in
combat, one could theoretically spend *all* ones for character level on
them, achieving DR 14/- at 18th level.
Post by Malachias Invictus
My players are *really* not going to like encounters with fiends and
spellcasters ;-)
As opposed to all those times they ate magic missiles and *liked* it?
<wink>
Yep, especially when the Cleric forgets to memorize Invisibility Purge and
runs out of Dispel Magic ;-)

(this happened to my party too - a high level Wizard actually *ran out of
spells* on our party, if you can imagine the damage inflicted)

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
tussock
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Malachias Invictus
Post by Malachias Invictus
Yes, this is definitely a "lockdown and drop the bomb"-type spell. Of
course, if you have a fiend or Half-Fiend grapple the target, and keep
him in the area of effect...
<laughter>
A Dwarven comrade would be able to tough it out as well; a 10th level
Dwarven Fighter likely has 20 Con and a +7 base Fortitude save, +2 for
poison, +2 for spell (hmm. Do you get both for magic that is poison?),
No, because they are both named bonuses (racial).
According to the 3.5 SRD, MagicOverview.rtf, they do.

SPECIAL SPELL EFFECTS
Bonus Types:
"With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and
racial bonuses, only the better bonus works[...]"
--
tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.
Michael Scott Brown
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by tussock
Post by Malachias Invictus
No, because they are both named bonuses (racial).
According to the 3.5 SRD, MagicOverview.rtf, they do.
SPECIAL SPELL EFFECTS
"With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and
racial bonuses, only the better bonus works[...]"
Well butter me up and call me funky.

-Michael
Seebs
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Michael Scott Brown
Post by tussock
Post by Malachias Invictus
No, because they are both named bonuses (racial).
According to the 3.5 SRD, MagicOverview.rtf, they do.
SPECIAL SPELL EFFECTS
"With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and
racial bonuses, only the better bonus works[...]"
Well butter me up and call me funky.
Interesting! The PHB glossary (which, in 3.0, was considered more canonical
than anything else) doesn't list racial bonuses as stacking.

Similarly, the DMG's list of bonus types says "except for dodge bonuses and
some circumstance bonuses".

Contradiction!

-s
--
Copyright 2003, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / ***@plethora.net
http://www.seebs.net/log/ - YA blog. http://www.seebs.net/ - homepage.
C/Unix wizard, pro-commerce radical, spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon!
Consulting, computers, web hosting, and shell access: http://www.plethora.net/
Bradd W. Szonye
22 years ago
Permalink
...
Huh? They do what? It looks like you're trying to disagree, but what you
quoted supports "they don't stack," which is what the other poster said.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.concentric.net/~Bradds
Dave
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Bradd W. Szonye
Post by tussock
Post by Malachias Invictus
Post by Malachias Invictus
Yes, this is definitely a "lockdown and drop the bomb"-type spell.
Of
...
According to the 3.5 SRD doc quoted above regarding spell effects, racial
bonues *do* stack (as do dodge bonuses and most circumstance bonuses). So
the text above supports the disagreement.
--
-Dave
Fairbanks was to Sullivan as Parcells is to Kraft
Seebs
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Dave
According to the 3.5 SRD doc quoted above regarding spell effects, racial
bonues *do* stack (as do dodge bonuses and most circumstance bonuses). So
the text above supports the disagreement.
Except that this contradicts the DMG's listing of bonus types.

Whee!

-s
--
Copyright 2003, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / ***@plethora.net
http://www.seebs.net/log/ - YA blog. http://www.seebs.net/ - homepage.
C/Unix wizard, pro-commerce radical, spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon!
Consulting, computers, web hosting, and shell access: http://www.plethora.net/
Dave
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Seebs
Post by Dave
According to the 3.5 SRD doc quoted above regarding spell effects, racial
bonues *do* stack (as do dodge bonuses and most circumstance bonuses).
So
Post by Seebs
Post by Dave
the text above supports the disagreement.
Except that this contradicts the DMG's listing of bonus types.
Whee!
I did see your earlier post on that. There will obviously be errata on this
somewhere. Since it looks like this is something that got added (in the
SRD) that wasn't in 3.0, then my guess would be that the DMG could end up
with the errata. Or the relevant SRD doc could magically change overnight
without any fanfare. Who knows?
--
-Dave
Fairbanks was to Sullivan as Parcells is to Kraft
Seebs
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Dave
I did see your earlier post on that. There will obviously be errata on this
somewhere. Since it looks like this is something that got added (in the
SRD) that wasn't in 3.0, then my guess would be that the DMG could end up
with the errata. Or the relevant SRD doc could magically change overnight
without any fanfare. Who knows?
It's not an SRD vs Books thing. It's a book-vs-book. DMG says only
circumstance and dodge bonuses stack, and only some circumstance bonuses. PHB
says racial bonuses stack too.

The only cases I can think of are racial skill modifiers (which I think never
have the option of stacking anyway) or...

Hmm. What if you had a template that gave a +2 racial bonus to Listen, and
applied it to a race with a +2 racial bonus?

Maybe it should be something like "racial bonuses from different races or
templates stack".

-s
--
Copyright 2003, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / ***@plethora.net
http://www.seebs.net/log/ - YA blog. http://www.seebs.net/ - homepage.
C/Unix wizard, pro-commerce radical, spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon!
Consulting, computers, web hosting, and shell access: http://www.plethora.net/
Bradd W. Szonye
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Dave
Post by Bradd W. Szonye
Huh? They do what? It looks like you're trying to disagree, but what you
quoted supports "they don't stack," which is what the other poster said.
According to the 3.5 SRD doc quoted above regarding spell effects,
racial bonues *do* stack (as do dodge bonuses and most circumstance
bonuses). So the text above supports the disagreement.
Oops, mea culpa! I failed my reading comprehension check.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.concentric.net/~Bradds
Wayne Shaw
22 years ago
Permalink
On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 18:38:27 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye"
Post by Bradd W. Szonye
Post by tussock
SPECIAL SPELL EFFECTS
"With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and
racial bonuses, only the better bonus works[...]"
Huh? They do what? It looks like you're trying to disagree, but what you
quoted supports "they don't stack," which is what the other poster said.
Note "with the exception of" Bradd. That quote supports just the
opposite.
Malachias Invictus
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Bradd W. Szonye
Post by tussock
SPECIAL SPELL EFFECTS
"With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and
racial bonuses, only the better bonus works[...]"
Huh? They do what? It looks like you're trying to disagree, but what you
quoted supports "they don't stack," which is what the other poster said.
Hmm. You may want to read that again...
--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Malachias Invictus
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by tussock
Post by Malachias Invictus
Post by Malachias Invictus
Yes, this is definitely a "lockdown and drop the bomb"-type spell.
Of
...
Good eye, Tussock. I guess they do indeed stack.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Dave Butler
22 years ago
Permalink
Michael Scott Brown <***@earthlink.net> wrote:

[on /cloudkill/ changes in 3.5e]
Post by Michael Scott Brown
Well, it certainly makes it useful again (1d10 hp/round is
tiddly-winks for high level characters ordinarily) - but don't get
*too* excited about it; because it drifts away from the caster, and
because it's only 20' radius, generally speaking the most you can
expect it to be affecting anyone is one or two rounds; and 2d4 con
damage with saves for half at high level is probably about 1-4 points
of con.
Being lazy (and staying with 3.0), what level's /mass [lesser]
restoration/? I mean, there's gotta be some way of removing ability
damage from a large number of people, right?
Post by Michael Scott Brown
However, if you can Hold or Web someone and then drop this
baby on them ... ow, ow, ow.
/Solid fog/, if it survived the transition. No save, no SR, just
being stuck at 10% movement while the /cloudkill/ rolls over you.
(Yeah, it's defeatable (/dispel/, fire attacks, teleportation, etc.),
but what do you expect for a fourth-level spell?)
--
--DcB
tussock
22 years ago
Permalink
<Re: /Cloudkill/ combo's>
Post by Dave Butler
/Solid fog/, if it survived the transition. No save, no SR, just
being stuck at 10% movement while the /cloudkill/ rolls over you.
(Yeah, it's defeatable (/dispel/, fire attacks, teleportation, etc.),
but what do you expect for a fourth-level spell?)
It's 5' movement rate, no 5' steps. There's also /Acid Fog/ at 6th
level, like /Solid Fog/ but with free pain.
Ooh. Ahhh. Hmm. Can two clouds occupy the same area? If the fog
impeded movement, doesn't it impede the Cloudkill? But does it block the
vapours from entering at all, or does it only slow the progress of the
emanation once it's _in_ there?
/Solid Fog/ specifically only slows creatures (and stops missile
weapons). The spells overlap just fine.
--
tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.
Seebs
22 years ago
Permalink
Ooh. Ahhh. Hmm. Can two clouds occupy the same area? If the fog
impeded movement, doesn't it impede the Cloudkill? But does it block the
vapours from entering at all, or does it only slow the progress of the
emanation once it's _in_ there?
This one is sufficiently bizarre it's worth taking to wotc.
I'd probably slow the cloudkill, making it much more deadly, just because
that's the coolest outcome.

-s
--
Copyright 2003, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / ***@plethora.net
http://www.seebs.net/log/ - YA blog. http://www.seebs.net/ - homepage.
C/Unix wizard, pro-commerce radical, spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon!
Consulting, computers, web hosting, and shell access: http://www.plethora.net/
Bradd W. Szonye
22 years ago
Permalink
I mean, there's gotta be some way of removing ability damage from a
large number of people, right?
It's called sleeping. :)
Speaking of which, natural healing got a lot easier in 3.5. In the
original rules, you needed to avoid exertion for a whole day to get any
natural healing. (You got a bonus if you spent all day in bad.) Now, you
get natural healing just by getting a good night's rest. Also, the
benefit of long-term care + 24 hours rest give you 4x healing instead of
3x healing.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.concentric.net/~Bradds
Rupert Boleyn
22 years ago
Permalink
On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 14:41:43 -0400, Douglas Bailey
...
I'd just rule they're fatigued. Obviously if they start fatigued this
will make them exhausted, and I'd rule that this exhaustion will only
go away naturally after a proper night's rest.
--
"Just because the the truth sets you free doesn't mean you should set the truth free."

Rupert Boleyn <***@paradise.net.nz>
tussock
22 years ago
Permalink
Which brings up a question that's arisen in my group's game: what are
the penalties for *not* getting a good night's rest?
Obviously lack of sleep prevents certain spellcasters from being able
to prepare new spells. And it prevents everyone from recovering hit
points, as you mention. But are there penalties beyond that?
A full 8 hours' rest lets you recover from being fatigued... but is
there a rule for *becoming* fatigued if you haven't rested?
Just the overland movement stuff. But it's easily extendable.
If there's a rule for this, I haven't spotted it yet. If there isn't,
I'd be interested to hear suggestions for a game mechanic to handle it.
They added to the extened Hustling rules a "between sleep cycles"
limit. It makes sense to me to have all such daily exertion limits only
reset after you sleep.

More than 1 hours hustling adds subdual damage, more than 8 hours
walking can do too. Equate everything else in game to time spent
hustling or walking and you're good to go.
Any such subdual damage accumulated brings Fatigue penalties, and
any 2nd source of Fatigue then produces Exaustion. People who don't
sleep will find themselves at -6 Str and Dex, no run or charge, and only
half move soon enough.

Ideally there should be a matching penalty on mental stats too, from
my lack of sleep experience the mind doesn't cope well, probably Con
aswell, but then the new Fatigue producing spells would be a bit
tough...
--
tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.
freakybaby
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Dave Butler
/Solid fog/, if it survived the transition. No save, no SR, just
being stuck at 10% movement while the /cloudkill/ rolls over you.
(Yeah, it's defeatable (/dispel/, fire attacks, teleportation, etc.),
but what do you expect for a fourth-level spell?)
It survive as far as I know. Although I now love Acid Fog, no save, and no
SR.
Malachias Invictus
22 years ago
Permalink
news:qtgUa.46801
Post by Dave Butler
Being lazy (and staying with 3.0), what level's /mass [lesser]
restoration/? I mean, there's gotta be some way of removing ability
damage from a large number of people, right?
It's called sleeping. :)
Or limited wish, or Miracle.
...although Mass Lesser Restoration would not be unreasonable, in my
opinion.
--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
MikeS18xx
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Michael Scott Brown
Well, it certainly makes it useful again (1d10 hp/round is tiddly-winks
for high level characters ordinarily)
It's tiddly-winks to high-level *munchkin* characters with 20 CONs,
Monty Haul equipment and lots of cohort druids for Bear's Heart.

It's utter murder upon anyone else, such as PCs in a point-buy campaign.


It's all just another way to kill off everyone who isn't a cleric of
d10/12 class.
--
Reply to mike1@@@usfamily.com sans two @@, or your reply won't reach me.

"An election is nothing more than an advance auction of stolen goods."
-- Ambrose Bierce
Wayne Shaw
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by MikeS18xx
Post by Michael Scott Brown
Well, it certainly makes it useful again (1d10 hp/round is tiddly-winks
for high level characters ordinarily)
It's tiddly-winks to high-level *munchkin* characters with 20 CONs,
Monty Haul equipment and lots of cohort druids for Bear's Heart.
It's utter murder upon anyone else, such as PCs in a point-buy campaign.
I've seen 28 point point buy campaigns where it was still tiddlywinks,
and the standard equipment makes it not hard to have an 18 Con with
item by that level with just that funds. Those are only 'munchkin' by
a definition that makes most of D&D players munchkin.

You're way overprojecting the peculiarities of your part of LG again
Mike.
Bradd W. Szonye
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by MikeS18xx
Post by Michael Scott Brown
Well, it certainly makes it useful again (1d10 hp/round is
tiddly-winks for high level characters ordinarily)
It's tiddly-winks to high-level *munchkin* characters with 20 CONs,
Monty Haul equipment and lots of cohort druids for Bear's Heart. It's
utter murder upon anyone else, such as PCs in a point-buy campaign.
It's less damage than you'd take in a typical melee attack. It's less
damage than you'd take on a failed save from most spells. Thinking of
the damage as "tiddly-winks" is hardly "munchkin." And standard point
buy (25 points) is a major nerf -- even LG's 28 points is nerfed
compared to the standard roll method. So the problem is not that
ordinary characters are normal, but that the method of chargen you use
is lousy.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.concentric.net/~Bradds
Rupert Boleyn
22 years ago
Permalink
On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 18:43:03 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye"
Post by Bradd W. Szonye
It's less damage than you'd take in a typical melee attack. It's less
damage than you'd take on a failed save from most spells. Thinking of
the damage as "tiddly-winks" is hardly "munchkin." And standard point
buy (25 points) is a major nerf -- even LG's 28 points is nerfed
compared to the standard roll method. So the problem is not that
ordinary characters are normal, but that the method of chargen you use
is lousy.
I'm pretty sure the stat roll systems averages out at 28 points,
though the high-end tail goes way up there.
--
"Just because the the truth sets you free doesn't mean you should set the truth free."

Rupert Boleyn <***@paradise.net.nz>
freakybaby
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Michael Scott Brown
However,
if you can Hold or Web someone and then drop this baby on them ... ow,
ow, ow.
Also use a Wall of force/ice/iron/etc to block the drift, or a couple to
box in the target(s) and drop in the cloudkill.
Bradd W. Szonye
22 years ago
Permalink
The spread's been reduced to 20 ....
Good, that makes it the same as most other cloud spells.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.concentric.net/~Bradds
Nockermensch
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Michael Scott Brown
That traditional 1d10 hp damage is now 1d4 *Con Damage* to 6+ HD
opponents (save for half)....
The spread's been reduced to 20, and its center of emission drifts away
from the caster at 10, so if you can cast it in confined quarters where your
prey cannot escape it can inflict only up to 4d4 Con damage in passing
over.... (shouldn't that "move away from you" rule for cloudkill abate if
the cloud is confined in a room? Where would it go?).
-Michael
Hehe. It's MUCH more scarier now.

Only if Ice Storm had been "fixed" as Cloudkill and Flame Arrow were...
--
@ @ Nockermensch, ...3.5e would be known as the EVOKER's PARADISE.
Bradd W. Szonye
22 years ago
Permalink
Only if Ice Storm had been "fixed" ....
I don't know if 3.0 had this as well, but that thing where it lasts a
whole round means that anyone in the area or passing through it gets
pounded, which is something of an interesting effect. <shrug>
Ooh, tasty! It used to be instantaneous, IIRC. Hm, I'm not sure why they
give the duration as "1 full round." Is that a new term of art for spell
durations, or were they just trying too hard to explain that it's not
instantaneous anymore?
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.concentric.net/~Bradds
Michael Scott Brown
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Bradd W. Szonye
I don't know if 3.0 had this as well, but that thing where it lasts a
whole round means that anyone in the area or passing through it gets
pounded, which is something of an interesting effect. <shrug>
Ooh, tasty! It used to be instantaneous, IIRC. Hm, I'm not sure why they
give the duration as "1 full round." Is that a new term of art for spell
durations, or were they just trying too hard to explain that it's not
instantaneous anymore?
Probably the latter. 1 round would have been enough.

-Michael
Varl
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Michael Scott Brown
That traditional 1d10 hp damage is now 1d4 *Con
Damage* to 6+ HD opponents (save for half)....
The spread's been reduced to 20, and its center of
emission drifts away from the caster at 10, so if
you can cast it in confined quarters where your prey
cannot escape it can inflict only up to 4d4 Con
damage in passing over.... (shouldn't that "move
away from you" rule for cloudkill abate if the cloud
is confined in a room? Where would it go?).
Sounds like a cozy vacation spot on Jupiter to me.
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for
good men to do nothing.
-Edmund Burke

http://www.shadowpool.com
MikeS18xx
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Michael Scott Brown
That traditional 1d10 hp damage is now 1d4 *Con Damage* to 6+ HD
opponents (save for half)....
The spread's been reduced to 20, and its center of emission drifts away
from the caster at 10, so if you can cast it in confined quarters where your
prey cannot escape it can inflict only up to 4d4 Con damage in passing
over.... (shouldn't that "move away from you" rule for cloudkill abate if
the cloud is confined in a room? Where would it go?).
That's nothing compared to what the new "Harm" can do: Welcome to -30
with a single touch.
--
Reply to mike1@@@usfamily.com sans two @@, or your reply won't reach me.

"An election is nothing more than an advance auction of stolen goods."
-- Ambrose Bierce
HADSIL
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by MikeS18xx
That's nothing compared to what the new "Harm" can do: Welcome to -30
with a single touch.
--
Reread the spell. It does say it cannot go below 1 hit point.

Gerald Katz
I Love New York!
Douglas Bailey
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by HADSIL
Post by MikeS18xx
That's nothing compared to what the new "Harm" can do: Welcome to -30
with a single touch.
Reread the spell. It does say it cannot go below 1 hit point.
*If* you save. As it's worded in v3.5 (PHB and SRD), that limitation
only applies when the save is made.

SRD: "If the creature successfully saves, _harm_...cannot reduce the
target's hit points to less than 1."

And the "Saving Throw" entry makes it clear that this is the intended
reading: why put "Will half; see text" in that entry if the save just
makes the spell do half damage? Why not just "Will half"? Answer:
because the save introduces the minimum-1-hp limitation as well as
halving the damage.

doug
--
---------------Douglas Bailey (***@world.std.com)---------------
I can't see the lines I used to think I could read between...
--Eno
Seebs
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Douglas Bailey
*If* you save. As it's worded in v3.5 (PHB and SRD), that limitation
only applies when the save is made.
I asked the sage about this already (no response yet). It really sounds
to me like a standard WotC rules botch; they meant to say "harm cannot reduce
hit points to less than one", but then they attached it to another sentence.
Post by Douglas Bailey
And the "Saving Throw" entry makes it clear that this is the intended
reading: why put "Will half; see text" in that entry if the save just
because the save introduces the minimum-1-hp limitation as well as
halving the damage.
Interesting point! You may be correct, then.

-s
--
Copyright 2003, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / ***@plethora.net
http://www.seebs.net/log/ - YA blog. http://www.seebs.net/ - homepage.
C/Unix wizard, pro-commerce radical, spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon!
Consulting, computers, web hosting, and shell access: http://www.plethora.net/
Rupert Boleyn
22 years ago
Permalink
...
I'm ruling that Harm (and Heal for that matter) can't take the
victim's HP below one, regardless of the save's result. This may end
up a houserule, but I don't care.
--
"Just because the the truth sets you free doesn't mean you should set the truth free."

Rupert Boleyn <***@paradise.net.nz>
Douglas Bailey
22 years ago
Permalink
Post by Seebs
Post by Douglas Bailey
*If* you save. As it's worded in v3.5 (PHB and SRD), that limitation
only applies when the save is made.
I asked the sage about this already (no response yet).
I'll be interested to hear his response when you get it.

I'm not religiously committed to either interpretation, though I think
allowing a non-saved-against _harm_ to kill foes is an interesting
change: it helps offset the "they nerfed _harm_ *too* much" argument.

The spell has a range of touch -- which makes it dangerous to use
against large foes with reach -- *and* allows a save *and* has a damage
cap... personally, I think that's enough limitations.
Post by Seebs
Post by Douglas Bailey
...why put "Will half; see text" in [the save] entry if the save just
because the save introduces the minimum-1-hp limitation...
Interesting point! You may be correct, then.
This is why I'm not sure it's just an editing botch: if it is, then
it's a very *consistent* editing botch. :-)

doug
--
---------------Douglas Bailey (***@world.std.com)---------------
I can't see the lines I used to think I could read between...
--Eno
Wayne Shaw
22 years ago
Permalink
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 01:56:15 -0400, Douglas Bailey
...
While I agree the wording can be read that way easily, I can't agree
with the latter statement, as all indications on the pre-Revision list
were that it's supposed to top out at 1 hp either way.
Douglas Bailey
22 years ago
Permalink
...
Fair enough, but you're privy to information about the designers'
intent that I don't have. All I've got is the text, and it seems pretty
clear.

doug
--
---------------Douglas Bailey (***@world.std.com)---------------
I can't see the lines I used to think I could read between...
--Eno
Wayne Shaw
22 years ago
Permalink
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 15:17:33 -0400, Douglas Bailey
...
All it indicates is that there was an error in original listing, and
whoever did the data entry followed through.
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