Power Attack and Cleave under 3.5

[David]

Hi Folks

Did i understand this correctly, that Power Attacking +x with a two
handed weapon gives damage +2x.
So lets say my PCs Power Attack +3 with his 2H-Weapon hits, so then he
gets +6 to Damage?

Second Question: If my PC drops an enemy with a Power Attack +3 he is
entitled to cleave if another Enemy is withis reach. If so, would the
following cleave attack have to be a Power Attack +3 as well?

TIA
Dave :)

[JB]

Post by David
Hi Folks
Did i understand this correctly, that Power Attacking +x with a two
handed weapon gives damage +2x.
So lets say my PCs Power Attack +3 with his 2H-Weapon hits, so then he
gets +6 to Damage?

Correct.

Post by David
Second Question: If my PC drops an enemy with a Power Attack +3 he is
entitled to cleave if another Enemy is withis reach. If so, would the
following cleave attack have to be a Power Attack +3 as well?

Yes.

[David]

Thank you for your help!

Cheers
Dave :)

[Chris Camfield]

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 12:01:51 -0000, "JB" <***@talk21.com> wrote:
[snip]

Post by David
Second Question: If my PC drops an enemy with a Power Attack +3 he is
entitled to cleave if another Enemy is withis reach. If so, would the
following cleave attack have to be a Power Attack +3 as well?

Yes.

Not only that, but until the character's next action, any attack of opportunity
is automatically also a power attack as well.

Chris

[Michael Scott Brown]

Post by David
Did i understand this correctly, that Power Attacking +x with a two
handed weapon gives damage +2x.
So lets say my PCs Power Attack +3 with his 2H-Weapon hits, so then he
gets +6 to Damage?

Why would you think otherwise? That is, after all, what power attack
says to do. It makes two-handed weapons very dangerous.
Btw - it's better to write that as power attack -3/+6 so that you know
how much of a penalty you're taking to hit & how much damage you're getting
for it.

Post by David
Second Question: If my PC drops an enemy with a Power Attack +3 he is
entitled to cleave if another Enemy is withis reach. If so, would the
following cleave attack have to be a Power Attack +3 as well?

*All* your attacks take on the power attack characteristics you selected
for the round. As the feat description says, you take the penalty in
exchange for bonus damage on your attacks, and this state of affairs lasts
*until your next turn*. Not only are your "main" attacks power attacks, but
so are your Cleaves and your attacks of opportunity, and your rolls to
defend yourself against being disarmed or sundered will be penalized.

-Michael

[Stephenls]

Post by Michael Scott Brown
Why would you think otherwise? That is, after all, what power attack
says to do. It makes two-handed weapons very dangerous.

Alternately, "It makes Power Attack worth getting for its own sake,
rather than just because it's a prerequisite for other, better feats."

[Michael Scott Brown]

Post by Stephenls

Post by Michael Scott Brown
Why would you think otherwise? That is, after all, what power attack
says to do. It makes two-handed weapons very dangerous.

Alternately, "It makes Power Attack worth getting for its own sake,
rather than just because it's a prerequisite for other, better feats."

All true.

-Michael

[David]

Post by Michael Scott Brown
Why would you think otherwise? That is, after all, what power attack
says to do. It makes two-handed weapons very dangerous.

Because the description under the "Special:" section is somewhat unclear.
it says: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed
weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted
from your attack rolls.

Add twice the number subtracted to what.
And as a non-native english speaker i thought i better ask.

Post by Michael Scott Brown
*All* your attacks take on the power attack characteristics you selected
for the round.

Thanks, i missed this as well.
So, it was already worth it to ask you guys, see :))

Cheers
Dave :)

[Wayne Shaw]

Post by David
Hi Folks
Did i understand this correctly, that Power Attacking +x with a two
handed weapon gives damage +2x.
So lets say my PCs Power Attack +3 with his 2H-Weapon hits, so then he
gets +6 to Damage?

That's correct.

Post by David
Second Question: If my PC drops an enemy with a Power Attack +3 he is
entitled to cleave if another Enemy is withis reach. If so, would the
following cleave attack have to be a Power Attack +3 as well?

Yup. With the usual -3 penalty to hit, of course, for doing so.

[Jim Davies]

Post by David
Hi Folks
Did i understand this correctly, that Power Attacking +x with a two
handed weapon gives damage +2x.
So lets say my PCs Power Attack +3 with his 2H-Weapon hits, so then he
gets +6 to Damage?

As other have said, yes.

IMHO it's too much. I rule0'd it to x1.5 (round down) in the same
spirit as x1.5 damage bonus for strength. Likewise I allow PA with
light weapons, but at x0.5 (down).

2H weapons are already ahead of TWF; why make them even better?

After all, it's not just a matter of putting a lot of muscle behind
it; it's also the D&D equivalent of the 'called shot' - a lower chance
to hit a more vulnerable target.

Besides, under stock 3.5e, Legolas can no longer stab one orc in the
eye with an arrow on Amon Hen and then shoot another. Or he could, but
only for 1d4 damage.

[Matt Pillsbury]

Jim Davies <***@aaargh.NoBleedinSpam.org> writes:
[...]

Post by Jim Davies
Besides, under stock 3.5e, Legolas can no longer stab one orc in the
eye with an arrow on Amon Hen and then shoot another. Or he could,
but only for 1d4 damage.

Sure he can.

1d4 + favored enemy bonus isn't actually that bad, and it stands to
reason that Legolas has a strength bonus to boot. Add in an enhance-
ment bonus from the arrows, and maybe even the /slay orc/ ability
(he's an elf, he's got magic arrows) and that's one dead-ass orc.

Heck, he might even have 5 levels of Duellist for Precise Strike (+1d6
damage from light piercing weapons); he certainly showed off pretty
much every one of those class features during the course of the
movie.

OTOH, I think allowing 1/2 damage for Power Attack with light weapons
is a good house rule.

[JB]

Post by Jim Davies

Post by David
Hi Folks
Did i understand this correctly, that Power Attacking +x with a two
handed weapon gives damage +2x.
So lets say my PCs Power Attack +3 with his 2H-Weapon hits, so then he
gets +6 to Damage?

As other have said, yes.
IMHO it's too much. I rule0'd it to x1.5 (round down) in the same
spirit as x1.5 damage bonus for strength.

Run the maths. It only makes a huge difference for ACs that vary from
the typical you'd expect to encounter. It's only the -1/+2 rule for TH
weapons that made it feat worthy. Before it was detrimental.

Post by Jim Davies
2H weapons are already ahead of TWF; why make them even better?

TWF is not necessarily behind if you include bonus damage dice from the
likes of Sneak attack and the multitude of available weapon
enchantments.

[Jim Davies]

Post by JB

Post by Jim Davies
IMHO it's too much. I rule0'd it to x1.5 (round down) in the same
spirit as x1.5 damage bonus for strength.

Run the maths. It only makes a huge difference for ACs that vary from
the typical you'd expect to encounter. It's only the -1/+2 rule for TH
weapons that made it feat worthy. Before it was detrimental.

True in those cases, but not always. Last session, a fighter IMC was
in the middle of having his plate mail enchanted when hobgoblins were
seen outside the fort. So he runs outside with his bastard sword and
starts hacking them up (mighty cleave...). A 4F bugbear with a
greatsword pops up out of the bushes and goes all PA on him. It.got
very painful very quickly.

I know there's not much in it, but it seems a bit too good.

The other reason I've changed it is that IMC all weapons used in 2
hands get +1 to hit, +1 damage. This is to resolve the odd case where
there's no reason to use a battleaxe in 2 hands if you have less than
14 strength. Ergo, 2H weapons are already good enough.

Post by JB

Post by Jim Davies
2H weapons are already ahead of TWF; why make them even better?

TWF is not necessarily behind if you include bonus damage dice from the
likes of Sneak attack and the multitude of available weapon
enchantments.

That's fine for rogues, but they don't usually have or use PA. It's
the fighters and TWF-style rangers I'm on about.

[Mike1]

Post by JB
Run the maths. It only makes a huge difference for ACs that vary from
the typical you'd expect to encounter. It's only the -1/+2 rule for TH
weapons that made it feat worthy. Before it was detrimental.

No it wasn't; it just "seemed" that way by looking at averaging
statistics.

3.0 Power Attacks had its uses:

* The "wrong weapon" versus DR.
* Pushing average crit damage over "massive-damage" threshholds.
* In conjunction with Spirited Charge (where 1pt became 3pts).

[JB]

Post by Mike1

Post by JB
Run the maths. It only makes a huge difference for ACs that vary from
the typical you'd expect to encounter. It's only the -1/+2 rule for TH
weapons that made it feat worthy. Before it was detrimental.

No it wasn't; it just "seemed" that way by looking at averaging
statistics.

Yes it was. You cripple your to hit values so much that the increase in
damage occurs too infrequently. Over the course of a battle is
*important*.

Post by Mike1
* The "wrong weapon" versus DR.
* Pushing average crit damage over "massive-damage" threshholds.

These situations are so rare it is *not* worth spending a feat to worry
about.

Post by Mike1
* In conjunction with Spirited Charge (where 1pt became 3pts).

The overall benefit versus loss is still AC dependent so the correct
answer is "sometimes with Spirited Charge" - not feat worthy when you
look at the other options.

[Wayne Shaw]

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 22:48:42 -0600, Mike1

Post by Mike1

Post by JB
Run the maths. It only makes a huge difference for ACs that vary from
the typical you'd expect to encounter. It's only the -1/+2 rule for TH
weapons that made it feat worthy. Before it was detrimental.

No it wasn't; it just "seemed" that way by looking at averaging
statistics.
* The "wrong weapon" versus DR.

In practice, not much help unless the monster had a truely lousy AC so
you could pump it up enough to make a difference.

Post by Mike1
* Pushing average crit damage over "massive-damage" threshholds.

Vaguely relevant if people were actually using that silly damn rule.

Post by Mike1
* In conjunction with Spirited Charge (where 1pt became 3pts).

Not a comment about Power Attack itself, however, but it in
conjunction with a non-core feat.

[Chad Lubrecht]

Post by Wayne Shaw
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 22:48:42 -0600, Mike1

Post by Mike1
* In conjunction with Spirited Charge (where 1pt became 3pts).

Not a comment about Power Attack itself, however, but it in
conjunction with a non-core feat.

Sprited charge has always been a core feat. Not sure if you
can actually pull them off often enough to make Power Attack
worthwhile.

[Wayne Shaw]

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 20:04:28 GMT, Chad Lubrecht

Post by Chad Lubrecht

Post by Wayne Shaw
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 22:48:42 -0600, Mike1

Post by Mike1
* In conjunction with Spirited Charge (where 1pt became 3pts).

Not a comment about Power Attack itself, however, but it in
conjunction with a non-core feat.

Sprited charge has always been a core feat. Not sure if you
can actually pull them off often enough to make Power Attack
worthwhile.

D'oh. Sorry, I was thinking of the feat from S&F which does something
vaguely similar.

[Jim Davies]

Post by Mike1
* The "wrong weapon" versus DR.

This is more useful now, as DRs are lower and you're less likely to
have the sand wedge in your golf bag, as it were.

Post by Mike1
* Pushing average crit damage over "massive-damage" threshholds.

Seldom an issue, methinks. Except for paladins with Blessed Keen
weapons.

Post by Mike1
* In conjunction with Spirited Charge (where 1pt became 3pts).

Also good with [Great] Cleave, especially if the targets have mediocre
AC and mediocre hp. It gets golden against a bunch of gnolls, for
example. AC 15, 11 hp.

Actually, here's a PITA about Great Cleave. The only people who have
the feats to waste on it are fighters, and it has a minimum BAB of +4,
ie 4th level. And there nobody in his right mind will take anything
except Weapon Specialisation*. As such, it's 6th level, by which time
the wizard is eradicating the scum.


* hyperbole. Could be Sping Attack.