Spellcasting for money - simple game mechanics?

[Shane]

Okay, a PC has some downtime and decides he wants to do what NPC casters
presumably do - make a living off his magic. Enter the first stumbling
block: I found the bit about how much a NPC can make per spell cast, but
does it say anywhere how much the caster is likely to make per day or
week (or any other timeframe for that matter)?

The mundane rules for making a living use Craft and Profession, each of
which offers a gross income of half your check result in gold pieces per
week (by the way, are there any rules which modify this based on
location, availability of work, or other factors?).

If a 1st level wizard can sell just one 1st level spell each week, then
based on the 10 x spell level x caster level rule he matches the average
weekly gross of a typical Commoner/1 crafter or professional. On the
other hand, casting Gate once a week earns a lot more!

Now I might rule "you spend a week working for the local mage guild, and
a couple of merchants pay for some Mending spells, and the city council
has you Teleport a courier to Ethsomalon. After the guild takes its cut,
you make, um, 250 gold."

But if there's, say, six months of downtime, I'd rather not work out
each individual day/week/whatever of what happens, and I'd like to be
consistent should furhter downtimes occur in the future. Also, it should
be a nice way to earn some extra cash, but not so much that the PCs
start taking extended "working holidays" compared to the rewards of
Adventuring.

So a simple game mechanic would be nice. It'd also be good if we could
apply this mechanic to any PC, not just casters. So while Joe Mage takes
six months off to work for the mage guild, Jane Fighter could be serving
in the Royal Army as a King's Colonel, making just as much money... (or
a bit more or less depending on the dice, levels, situation, whatever).

Note that I'm not interested in gritty economic realism. Just a game
mechanic that covers "PCs want to make some money during downtime."

Opinions? Books that already cover this idea? A suitcase full of money?

Shane. :)

[JB]

Post by Shane
Okay, a PC has some downtime and decides he wants to do what NPC casters
presumably do - make a living off his magic.

...

Post by Shane
The mundane rules for making a living use Craft and Profession, each of
which offers a gross income of half your check result in gold pieces per
week (by the way, are there any rules which modify this based on
location, availability of work, or other factors?).

...

Post by Shane
So a simple game mechanic would be nice. It'd also be good if we could
apply this mechanic to any PC, not just casters. So while Joe Mage takes
six months off to work for the mage guild, Jane Fighter could be serving
in the Royal Army as a King's Colonel, making just as much money... (or
a bit more or less depending on the dice, levels, situation,

whatever).

Post by Shane
Note that I'm not interested in gritty economic realism. Just a game
mechanic that covers "PCs want to make some money during downtime."

Suggestion:

(20 + Caster Level^2) / 2 per week over an extended period.

Multiclass characters work out a result for each caster level
Substitute caster level for fighter level etc as appropriate.

Unlike mundane skills these values should be heavily influenced by
location like any rare or expensive commodity.

Thorpe - 5d2 X 10 %
Hamlet - 2d5 X 10 %
Village - 2d4 X 10 %
Small Town - 1d4 X 10%
Large Town + 0
Small City + 1d2 X 10%
Large City + 1d4 X 10%
Metropolis + 1d6 X 10%

Thus a 1st level Wizard in a Village is likely to earn a couple of Gp
every week. His skill isn't in demand and he sells the odd spell
component he has an excess of and the odd cantrip.

A 10th level Wizard in a Large Town will make about 60gp. Intermittent
demand for low level spells and the occasional mid level one.

A retired 3rd level Hedge Wizard based in a Large Town will make around
750gp per year. Seems like an OK baseline to me.

[James Quick]

Post by JB
Unlike mundane skills these values should be heavily influenced by
location like any rare or expensive commodity.
Thorpe - 5d2 X 10 %
Hamlet - 2d5 X 10 %
Village - 2d4 X 10 %
Small Town - 1d4 X 10%
Large Town + 0
Small City + 1d2 X 10%
Large City + 1d4 X 10%
Metropolis + 1d6 X 10%

I like this, but would refine it slightly as follows:

Small City + 1d4-2 X 10%
Large City + 1d6-2 X 10%
Metropolis + 1d8-2 X 10%

This gives a chance that those markets might experience a "glut" and
prices would be therefore depressed slightly.

[JB]

Post by James Quick

Post by JB
Unlike mundane skills these values should be heavily influenced by
location like any rare or expensive commodity.
Thorpe - 5d2 X 10 %
Hamlet - 2d5 X 10 %
Village - 2d4 X 10 %
Small Town - 1d4 X 10%
Large Town + 0
Small City + 1d2 X 10%
Large City + 1d4 X 10%
Metropolis + 1d6 X 10%

Small City + 1d4-2 X 10%
Large City + 1d6-2 X 10%
Metropolis + 1d8-2 X 10%
This gives a chance that those markets might experience a "glut" and
prices would be therefore depressed slightly.

That's better.

[Justisaur]

Post by Shane
Okay, a PC has some downtime and decides he wants to do what NPC casters
presumably do - make a living off his magic. Enter the first stumbling
block: I found the bit about how much a NPC can make per spell cast, but
does it say anywhere how much the caster is likely to make per day or
week (or any other timeframe for that matter)?
The mundane rules for making a living use Craft and Profession, each of
which offers a gross income of half your check result in gold pieces per
week (by the way, are there any rules which modify this based on
location, availability of work, or other factors?).
If a 1st level wizard can sell just one 1st level spell each week, then
based on the 10 x spell level x caster level rule he matches the average
weekly gross of a typical Commoner/1 crafter or professional. On the
other hand, casting Gate once a week earns a lot more!
Now I might rule "you spend a week working for the local mage guild, and
a couple of merchants pay for some Mending spells, and the city council
has you Teleport a courier to Ethsomalon. After the guild takes its cut,
you make, um, 250 gold."
But if there's, say, six months of downtime, I'd rather not work out
each individual day/week/whatever of what happens, and I'd like to be
consistent should furhter downtimes occur in the future. Also, it should
be a nice way to earn some extra cash, but not so much that the PCs
start taking extended "working holidays" compared to the rewards of
Adventuring.
So a simple game mechanic would be nice. It'd also be good if we could
apply this mechanic to any PC, not just casters. So while Joe Mage takes
six months off to work for the mage guild, Jane Fighter could be serving
in the Royal Army as a King's Colonel, making just as much money... (or
a bit more or less depending on the dice, levels, situation, whatever).
Note that I'm not interested in gritty economic realism. Just a game
mechanic that covers "PCs want to make some money during downtime."
Opinions? Books that already cover this idea? A suitcase full of money?

I don't think they should be making more money vs. someone who is
crafting / doing a profession.

So he wants to make money at 'profession wizard' use the rules and his
profession skill - probably 0. but an average check will earn him 5 gp a
week. Being an adveturing wizard he doesn't really know how to sell
himself properly, probably doesn't have the right spells, has better
known competition etc. If you are feeling really generous add +1 to the
check per spell level he can cast as a circumstance bonus.

[Senator Blutarsky]

Post by Justisaur
So he wants to make money at 'profession wizard' use the rules and his
profession skill - probably 0. but an average check will earn him 5 gp a
week. Being an adveturing wizard he doesn't really know how to sell
himself properly, probably doesn't have the right spells, has better
known competition etc. If you are feeling really generous add +1 to the
check per spell level he can cast as a circumstance bonus.

That's *exactly* how I'd do it. Good job,
Justisaur! ;-)

-Bluto

[bsheffer]

Post by Justisaur

Post by Shane
Okay, a PC has some downtime and decides he wants to do what NPC casters
presumably do - make a living off his magic. Enter the first stumbling
block: I found the bit about how much a NPC can make per spell cast, but
does it say anywhere how much the caster is likely to make per day or
week (or any other timeframe for that matter)?
The mundane rules for making a living use Craft and Profession, each of
which offers a gross income of half your check result in gold pieces per
week (by the way, are there any rules which modify this based on
location, availability of work, or other factors?).
If a 1st level wizard can sell just one 1st level spell each week, then
based on the 10 x spell level x caster level rule he matches the average
weekly gross of a typical Commoner/1 crafter or professional. On the
other hand, casting Gate once a week earns a lot more!
Now I might rule "you spend a week working for the local mage guild, and
a couple of merchants pay for some Mending spells, and the city council
has you Teleport a courier to Ethsomalon. After the guild takes its cut,
you make, um, 250 gold."
But if there's, say, six months of downtime, I'd rather not work out
each individual day/week/whatever of what happens, and I'd like to be
consistent should furhter downtimes occur in the future. Also, it should
be a nice way to earn some extra cash, but not so much that the PCs
start taking extended "working holidays" compared to the rewards of
Adventuring.
So a simple game mechanic would be nice. It'd also be good if we could
apply this mechanic to any PC, not just casters. So while Joe Mage takes
six months off to work for the mage guild, Jane Fighter could be serving
in the Royal Army as a King's Colonel, making just as much money... (or
a bit more or less depending on the dice, levels, situation, whatever).
Note that I'm not interested in gritty economic realism. Just a game
mechanic that covers "PCs want to make some money during downtime."
Opinions? Books that already cover this idea? A suitcase full of money?

I don't think they should be making more money vs. someone who is
crafting / doing a profession.
So he wants to make money at 'profession wizard' use the rules and his
profession skill - probably 0. but an average check will earn him 5 gp a
week. Being an adveturing wizard he doesn't really know how to sell
himself properly, probably doesn't have the right spells, has better
known competition etc. If you are feeling really generous add +1 to the
check per spell level he can cast as a circumstance bonus.

The problem with these rules is that some work is just more valuable
than others. Unless magic is easily replaceable with mundane
alternatives or there is a surfeit of mages, mage services will be
always in demand and so command a higher price.

Making 5 gold a week for a wizard is ridiculous unless you are talking
about clearing it after all expenses are met (a mage has many),
including living expenses. Otherwise, 5 gold a week is about 250 gold
a year which would make the mage a very poor person indeed, not what
he or she spent long years studying to be.

[Justisaur]

Post by bsheffer

Post by Justisaur

Post by Shane
Okay, a PC has some downtime and decides he wants to do what NPC casters
presumably do - make a living off his magic. Enter the first stumbling
block: I found the bit about how much a NPC can make per spell cast, but
does it say anywhere how much the caster is likely to make per day or
week (or any other timeframe for that matter)?
The mundane rules for making a living use Craft and Profession, each of
which offers a gross income of half your check result in gold pieces per
week (by the way, are there any rules which modify this based on
location, availability of work, or other factors?).
If a 1st level wizard can sell just one 1st level spell each week, then
based on the 10 x spell level x caster level rule he matches the average
weekly gross of a typical Commoner/1 crafter or professional. On the
other hand, casting Gate once a week earns a lot more!
Now I might rule "you spend a week working for the local mage guild, and
a couple of merchants pay for some Mending spells, and the city council
has you Teleport a courier to Ethsomalon. After the guild takes its cut,
you make, um, 250 gold."
But if there's, say, six months of downtime, I'd rather not work out
each individual day/week/whatever of what happens, and I'd like to be
consistent should furhter downtimes occur in the future. Also, it should
be a nice way to earn some extra cash, but not so much that the PCs
start taking extended "working holidays" compared to the rewards of
Adventuring.
So a simple game mechanic would be nice. It'd also be good if we could
apply this mechanic to any PC, not just casters. So while Joe Mage takes
six months off to work for the mage guild, Jane Fighter could be serving
in the Royal Army as a King's Colonel, making just as much money... (or
a bit more or less depending on the dice, levels, situation, whatever).
Note that I'm not interested in gritty economic realism. Just a game
mechanic that covers "PCs want to make some money during downtime."
Opinions? Books that already cover this idea? A suitcase full of money?

I don't think they should be making more money vs. someone who is
crafting / doing a profession.
So he wants to make money at 'profession wizard' use the rules and his
profession skill - probably 0. but an average check will earn him 5 gp a
week. Being an adveturing wizard he doesn't really know how to sell
himself properly, probably doesn't have the right spells, has better
known competition etc. If you are feeling really generous add +1 to the
check per spell level he can cast as a circumstance bonus.

The problem with these rules is that some work is just more valuable
than others. Unless magic is easily replaceable with mundane
alternatives or there is a surfeit of mages, mage services will be
always in demand and so command a higher price.

Most magic *is* easily repaceable with mundane alternatives. Those that
aren't generally aren't useful except in combat, or very rare
circumstances. There's some exceptions, but they are few and far
between.

Post by bsheffer
Making 5 gold a week for a wizard is ridiculous unless you are talking
about clearing it after all expenses are met (a mage has many),
including living expenses. Otherwise, 5 gold a week is about 250 gold
a year which would make the mage a very poor person indeed, not what
he or she spent long years studying to be.

What long years studying? A wizard starts out at the same age as any
other class. A 1st lv wizard is little more than an apprentince, a one
pop gun. Wizards are rare, but so is the need for thier services. If
he wants to start making money being a wizard he can spend points on the
apropriate skill (profession: wizard), or he can go adventuring, or get
hired on by the army or someone else who can use his tactical value.

[First Prophet of Kaos]

<snip>

Post by Justisaur

Post by bsheffer
The problem with these rules is that some work is just more valuable
than others. Unless magic is easily replaceable with mundane
alternatives or there is a surfeit of mages, mage services will be
always in demand and so command a higher price.

Most magic *is* easily repaceable with mundane alternatives. Those that
aren't generally aren't useful except in combat, or very rare
circumstances. There's some exceptions, but they are few and far
between.

Eh?
Undetectable Aura, Erase, Enlarge, Message, Reduce, Obscure Object,
Detect Thoughts, locate object, continual flame, dispel magic,
tongues, illusory script, gentle repose, secret page, water breathing,
dimensional anchor, scrying, detect scrying, geas, bestow curse,
dismissal, leomund's secret chest, contact other plane, feeblemind,
sending, false vision, persistant image, passwall, teleport,
permanency, control weather, control water, stone to flesh, sequester,
insanity, plane shift, mind blank, discern location, freedom,
imprisonment, wish.

That's a bit too much stuff that is both not *easily* replaced via
mundane and useful outside of combat to qualify as 'few and far
between.'

The issue I see with making it like a craft/profession for income
rates is that most of the useful stuff is expensive (which in turn
limits the market somewhat.) Even if you're dictating that the
average professional wizard makes no more in a year than the average
blacksmith, you get the problem where the blacksmith does it a little
at a time while the wizard likely gets a couple large orders and
little in between.

IOW, it would work if the craft check was every other month (and the
income scaled to match,) but on a weekly basis the Wizard's either
going to sell something big and break the scale, or not sell anything.

Post by Justisaur

Post by bsheffer
Making 5 gold a week for a wizard is ridiculous unless you are talking
about clearing it after all expenses are met (a mage has many),
including living expenses. Otherwise, 5 gold a week is about 250 gold
a year which would make the mage a very poor person indeed, not what
he or she spent long years studying to be.

What long years studying? A wizard starts out at the same age as any
other class.

On average, a human wizard starts off about 4-5 years older than
anyone other than a Druid, Cleric or Monk; and the youngest of them is
a year older than the youngest member of any other class.

[Justisaur]

Post by First Prophet of Kaos
<snip>

Post by Justisaur

Post by bsheffer
The problem with these rules is that some work is just more valuable
than others. Unless magic is easily replaceable with mundane
alternatives or there is a surfeit of mages, mage services will be
always in demand and so command a higher price.

Most magic *is* easily repaceable with mundane alternatives. Those that
aren't generally aren't useful except in combat, or very rare
circumstances. There's some exceptions, but they are few and far
between.

Eh?
Undetectable Aura, Erase, Enlarge, Message, Reduce, Obscure Object,
Detect Thoughts, locate object, continual flame, dispel magic,
tongues, illusory script, gentle repose, secret page, water breathing,
dimensional anchor, scrying, detect scrying, geas, bestow curse,
dismissal, leomund's secret chest, contact other plane, feeblemind,
sending, false vision, persistant image, passwall, teleport,
permanency, control weather, control water, stone to flesh, sequester,
insanity, plane shift, mind blank, discern location, freedom,
imprisonment, wish.
That's a bit too much stuff that is both not *easily* replaced via
mundane and useful outside of combat to qualify as 'few and far
between.'

A few examples:

Detect Thoughts - easily replaced by sense motive skill
continual flame - a torch at much less of a cost.
tongues - someone who knows the language to be translated.
scrying - spys.
teleport - conventional travel

Any of the items above are useful so rarely compared to conventional
means, especially when you add in cost differences as to be useless for
selling. Things that truely can't be duplicated like dectect & dispell
magic would be so rarely useful for someone not adventuring as to be not
worth mentioning.

Post by First Prophet of Kaos
The issue I see with making it like a craft/profession for income
rates is that most of the useful stuff is expensive (which in turn
limits the market somewhat.) Even if you're dictating that the
average professional wizard makes no more in a year than the average
blacksmith, you get the problem where the blacksmith does it a little
at a time while the wizard likely gets a couple large orders and
little in between.

Very true. But we don't have a reasonable way of representing that.

Post by First Prophet of Kaos
IOW, it would work if the craft check was every other month (and the
income scaled to match,) but on a weekly basis the Wizard's either
going to sell something big and break the scale, or not sell anything.

Not terribly useful if you don't want to come up with some entirely new
system though.

[First Prophet of Kaos]

Post by Justisaur

Post by First Prophet of Kaos
<snip>

Post by Justisaur

Post by bsheffer
The problem with these rules is that some work is just more valuable
than others. Unless magic is easily replaceable with mundane
alternatives or there is a surfeit of mages, mage services will be
always in demand and so command a higher price.

Most magic *is* easily repaceable with mundane alternatives. Those that
aren't generally aren't useful except in combat, or very rare
circumstances. There's some exceptions, but they are few and far
between.

Eh?
Undetectable Aura, Erase, Enlarge, Message, Reduce, Obscure Object,
Detect Thoughts, locate object, continual flame, dispel magic,
tongues, illusory script, gentle repose, secret page, water breathing,
dimensional anchor, scrying, detect scrying, geas, bestow curse,
dismissal, leomund's secret chest, contact other plane, feeblemind,
sending, false vision, persistant image, passwall, teleport,
permanency, control weather, control water, stone to flesh, sequester,
insanity, plane shift, mind blank, discern location, freedom,
imprisonment, wish.
That's a bit too much stuff that is both not *easily* replaced via
mundane and useful outside of combat to qualify as 'few and far
between.'

Detect Thoughts - easily replaced by sense motive skill

Given the inconsistency and the lack of depth, I would not call that
'easily.'

Post by Justisaur
continual flame - a torch at much less of a cost.

But far less convenience, and even at 1cp an hour the cost will
eventually bypass the cost of a Continual Flame. If you've got the
money now and don't need the heat (particularly if you need to *not*
have the heat,) the CF will pay for itself eventually.

Unless you're the type who frequently annoys those with access to
Dispels.

Post by Justisaur
tongues - someone who knows the language to be translated.

Again, there is the matter of ease. Particularly when the issue is
one of multiple languages.

Post by Justisaur
scrying - spys.

Ease.

Post by Justisaur
teleport - conventional travel

Conventional travel can take days or even months; I would not call
that a 'replacement' for instantaneous.

Had you left the argument at mere replacement, you'd have most of
those; but *easily* replacable is a whole other story. If you have
the money, all of the magical options are miles above the conventional
substitutes.

Post by Justisaur

Post by First Prophet of Kaos
The issue I see with making it like a craft/profession for income
rates is that most of the useful stuff is expensive (which in turn
limits the market somewhat.) Even if you're dictating that the
average professional wizard makes no more in a year than the average
blacksmith, you get the problem where the blacksmith does it a little
at a time while the wizard likely gets a couple large orders and
little in between.

Very true. But we don't have a reasonable way of representing that.

Sure we do. It's called 'adventuring.'
It doesn't work so well for greedy bastards who want to top off their
phat loot with a little sidecoppers during their downtime, though.

Perhaps if it were checked on a monthly basis as I suggested (which is
more a matter of extrapolating an existing system than making a new
one) with some scaling for the all-or-nothing factor...
Hrm. Profession gives you half your check in gp for a week. So in a
month, you'd average about (rank+10)*2. Off the top of my head,
double that for specialist abilities, and set some minimal DC under
which you make nothing (no market for the skills at the time.)

[JB]

Post by Shane
Note that I'm not interested in gritty economic realism. Just a game
mechanic that covers "PCs want to make some money during downtime."
Opinions? Books that already cover this idea? A suitcase full of money?

I don't think they [Wizards] should be making more money vs. someone

who is

crafting / doing a profession.

They should be making at least as much as mercenary hirelings.

[Justisaur]

Post by Shane

Post by Shane
Note that I'm not interested in gritty economic realism. Just a game
mechanic that covers "PCs want to make some money during downtime."
Opinions? Books that already cover this idea? A suitcase full of

money?

I don't think they [Wizards] should be making more money vs. someone

who is

crafting / doing a profession.

They should be making at least as much as mercenary hirelings.

A mercenary is listed at 2sp per day in the DMG. That's less than my
method. Perhaps I was being too generous then..

[JB]

Post by Justisaur

Post by Shane

Post by Shane
Note that I'm not interested in gritty economic realism. Just a game
mechanic that covers "PCs want to make some money during downtime."
Opinions? Books that already cover this idea? A suitcase full of

money?

I don't think they [Wizards] should be making more money vs. someone

who is

crafting / doing a profession.

They should be making at least as much as mercenary hirelings.

A mercenary is listed at 2sp per day in the DMG. That's less than my
method. Perhaps I was being too generous then..

That's a 1st level Warrior (who should be earning less than even a first
level Mage). Note how it scales up with level.

[Justisaur]

Post by JB

Post by Justisaur

Post by Shane

Post by Shane
Note that I'm not interested in gritty economic realism. Just a game
mechanic that covers "PCs want to make some money during downtime."
Opinions? Books that already cover this idea? A suitcase full of

money?

I don't think they [Wizards] should be making more money vs. someone

who is

crafting / doing a profession.

They should be making at least as much as mercenary hirelings.

A mercenary is listed at 2sp per day in the DMG. That's less than my
method. Perhaps I was being too generous then..

That's a 1st level Warrior (who should be earning less than even a first
level Mage). Note how it scales up with level.

Hmm. Didn't notice that part about scaling with level, as that's for a
mercenary leader. They are all listed as 'warriors' though. Could use
the standard Lv-1 for the CR comparison though I guess, and value a 1st
lv. Wizard at 6 sp per day which comes out to 4 gp 2 sp per week for a
1st lv wizard. Add +2 gp 1 sp per level per week. Guess I was still
too generous ;) Actually I like this method better, they can make more
money if they want to spend the skill points on profession wizard.
Although most wizards seem to prefer taking craft: alchemy, which will
earn them more given thier usually higher Int. It also has the benefit
of working for all classes that want to make money just being what thier
class is.

[Nockermensch]

Post by Justisaur

Post by Shane
Okay, a PC has some downtime and decides he wants to do what NPC casters
presumably do - make a living off his magic. Enter the first stumbling
block: I found the bit about how much a NPC can make per spell cast, but
does it say anywhere how much the caster is likely to make per day or
week (or any other timeframe for that matter)?
The mundane rules for making a living use Craft and Profession, each of
which offers a gross income of half your check result in gold pieces per
week (by the way, are there any rules which modify this based on
location, availability of work, or other factors?).
If a 1st level wizard can sell just one 1st level spell each week, then
based on the 10 x spell level x caster level rule he matches the average
weekly gross of a typical Commoner/1 crafter or professional. On the
other hand, casting Gate once a week earns a lot more!
Now I might rule "you spend a week working for the local mage guild, and
a couple of merchants pay for some Mending spells, and the city council
has you Teleport a courier to Ethsomalon. After the guild takes its cut,
you make, um, 250 gold."
But if there's, say, six months of downtime, I'd rather not work out
each individual day/week/whatever of what happens, and I'd like to be
consistent should furhter downtimes occur in the future. Also, it should
be a nice way to earn some extra cash, but not so much that the PCs
start taking extended "working holidays" compared to the rewards of
Adventuring.
So a simple game mechanic would be nice. It'd also be good if we could
apply this mechanic to any PC, not just casters. So while Joe Mage takes
six months off to work for the mage guild, Jane Fighter could be serving
in the Royal Army as a King's Colonel, making just as much money... (or
a bit more or less depending on the dice, levels, situation, whatever).
Note that I'm not interested in gritty economic realism. Just a game
mechanic that covers "PCs want to make some money during downtime."
Opinions? Books that already cover this idea? A suitcase full of money?

I don't think they should be making more money vs. someone who is
crafting / doing a profession.

I think they should. Magic is... special.

Post by Justisaur
So he wants to make money at 'profession wizard' use the rules and his
profession skill - probably 0. but an average check will earn him 5 gp a
week. Being an adveturing wizard he doesn't really know how to sell
himself properly, probably doesn't have the right spells, has better
known competition etc. If you are feeling really generous add +1 to the
check per spell level he can cast as a circumstance bonus.

But this mechanic is good, however. Only that I'd make the "profession
wizard" a class level check, modified by uh... charisma (so wizards
that know how to sell themselves will make more money), wisdom (as
other professions) or even intelligence (in the end, better wizards
make more money). I'm not sure of what ability to use. Maybe the
better (if the DM is generous) or the worse (if he's not) of the
three.

The bit about the useful spells is also interesting. Maybe we should
ditch caster level and make this an special roll based on the utility
spells a wizard knows. Add the values for all the utility spells that
are in the wizard's spellbook and use the total as in a profession
check. Spells were rated in utility for "normal people" as very useful
(+1), useful (+0.5) and not useful (all those that aren't in the
table).

cantrips:
detect poison: +1
detect magic: +0.5
read magic: +0.5
dancing lights: +0.5
light: +0.5
ghost sound: +0.5
mage hand: +0.5
mending: +1
arcane mark: +0.5
prestigitation: +0.5

1st level:
unseen servant: +0.5
comprehend languages: +0.5
detect secret doors: +0.5
identify: +1
silent image: +0.5
ventriloquism: +0.5
erase: +0.5
enlarge person: +0.5
reduce person: +0.5

2nd level:
arcane lock: +0.5
resist energy: +0.5
detect thoughts: +1
locate object: +1
continual flame: +1
phantom trap: +0.5
knock: +0.5
whispering wind: +1

3rd level:
dispel magic: +1
explosive runes: +1
nondetection: +0.5
protection from energy: +0.5
sepia snake sigil: +1
arcane sight: +1
clairaudience/clairvoyance: +1
tongues: +1
illusory script: +1
major image: +0.5
gentle repose: +0.5
fly: +1
secret page: +0.5
water breathing: +0.5

...

[Justisaur]

Post by Nockermensch

Post by Justisaur

Post by Shane
Okay, a PC has some downtime and decides he wants to do what NPC casters
presumably do - make a living off his magic. Enter the first stumbling
block: I found the bit about how much a NPC can make per spell cast, but
does it say anywhere how much the caster is likely to make per day or
week (or any other timeframe for that matter)?
The mundane rules for making a living use Craft and Profession, each of
which offers a gross income of half your check result in gold pieces per
week (by the way, are there any rules which modify this based on
location, availability of work, or other factors?).
If a 1st level wizard can sell just one 1st level spell each week, then
based on the 10 x spell level x caster level rule he matches the average
weekly gross of a typical Commoner/1 crafter or professional. On the
other hand, casting Gate once a week earns a lot more!
Now I might rule "you spend a week working for the local mage guild, and
a couple of merchants pay for some Mending spells, and the city council
has you Teleport a courier to Ethsomalon. After the guild takes its cut,
you make, um, 250 gold."
But if there's, say, six months of downtime, I'd rather not work out
each individual day/week/whatever of what happens, and I'd like to be
consistent should furhter downtimes occur in the future. Also, it should
be a nice way to earn some extra cash, but not so much that the PCs
start taking extended "working holidays" compared to the rewards of
Adventuring.
So a simple game mechanic would be nice. It'd also be good if we could
apply this mechanic to any PC, not just casters. So while Joe Mage takes
six months off to work for the mage guild, Jane Fighter could be serving
in the Royal Army as a King's Colonel, making just as much money... (or
a bit more or less depending on the dice, levels, situation, whatever).
Note that I'm not interested in gritty economic realism. Just a game
mechanic that covers "PCs want to make some money during downtime."
Opinions? Books that already cover this idea? A suitcase full of money?

I don't think they should be making more money vs. someone who is
crafting / doing a profession.

I think they should. Magic is... special.

Post by Justisaur
So he wants to make money at 'profession wizard' use the rules and his
profession skill - probably 0. but an average check will earn him 5 gp a
week. Being an adveturing wizard he doesn't really know how to sell
himself properly, probably doesn't have the right spells, has better
known competition etc. If you are feeling really generous add +1 to the
check per spell level he can cast as a circumstance bonus.

But this mechanic is good, however. Only that I'd make the "profession
wizard" a class level check, modified by uh... charisma (so wizards
that know how to sell themselves will make more money), wisdom (as
other professions) or even intelligence (in the end, better wizards
make more money). I'm not sure of what ability to use. Maybe the
better (if the DM is generous) or the worse (if he's not) of the
three.
The bit about the useful spells is also interesting. Maybe we should
ditch caster level and make this an special roll based on the utility
spells a wizard knows. Add the values for all the utility spells that
are in the wizard's spellbook and use the total as in a profession
check. Spells were rated in utility for "normal people" as very useful
(+1), useful (+0.5) and not useful (all those that aren't in the
table).
mending: +1
prestigitation: +0.5

for normal people those two are the only ones that are of any use.

Post by Nockermensch
unseen servant: +0.5

this one is actually pretty useful.

Post by Nockermensch
comprehend languages: +0.5
detect secret doors: +0.5
identify: +1
silent image: +0.5
ventriloquism: +0.5
erase: +0.5
enlarge person: +0.5
reduce person: +0.5

none of these have use on a daily basis, and identify costs so much for
the material component that it's unlikely to see use by a particular
wizard ever.

Post by Nockermensch
arcane lock: +0.5
detect thoughts: +1
locate object: +1
continual flame: +1
phantom trap: +0.5
knock: +0.5
whispering wind: +1
explosive runes: +1
nondetection: +0.5
protection from energy: +0.5
clairaudience/clairvoyance: +1
tongues: +1
illusory script: +1
major image: +0.5
gentle repose: +0.5
fly: +1
secret page: +0.5
water breathing: +0.5

The problem with most if not all of the spells you've listed is that
while they may be somewhat useful, almost any of them can be preformed
for far cheaper (at least by DMG standard prices) by someone with the
right skills. The ones that can't while extremely useful and may be
worth it to someone are going to be a once in a year or even lifetime.

I'd rate some of the spells differently, but overall I don't think you
should grant more than +1 per spell level if he has *any* of the useful
spells, and cantrips don't count being 0 level.

[Shane]

First, many thanks to all for the replies!
...

Post by Justisaur

Post by Shane
If a 1st level wizard can sell just one 1st level spell each week, then
based on the 10 x spell level x caster level rule he matches the average
weekly gross of a typical Commoner/1 crafter or professional. On the
other hand, casting Gate once a week earns a lot more!

...

Post by Justisaur
I don't think they should be making more money vs. someone who is
crafting / doing a profession.

You feel then that the 3E rule for selling spells is vastly inflated,
or just that other than from passing adventurers there's so little
demand for spells that the local NPC casters can go weeks or months
between sales?

Post by Justisaur
So he wants to make money at 'profession wizard' use the rules and his
profession skill - probably 0. but an average check will earn him 5 gp a
week. Being an adveturing wizard he doesn't really know how to sell
himself properly, probably doesn't have the right spells, has better
known competition etc.

...

How do you figure that? That adventuring wizard might have six ranks in
Diplomacy and a Cloak of Charisma +4, own a spellbook thicker than a
titan's fist, and be known far and wide as the Wizard of Renton's Ford,
where he and three companions routed an orc horde intent on pillaging
the barony... okay he might instead be a novice who can't even toss a
cantrip right half the time, but I feel that was a rather blanket
statement. :)

Hmm. Perhaps Diplomacy should give a synergy bonus to Profession (and
Craft?) checks.

Shane.

[Justisaur]

Post by Shane
First, many thanks to all for the replies!
...

Post by Justisaur

Post by Shane
If a 1st level wizard can sell just one 1st level spell each week, then
based on the 10 x spell level x caster level rule he matches the average
weekly gross of a typical Commoner/1 crafter or professional. On the
other hand, casting Gate once a week earns a lot more!

...

Post by Justisaur
I don't think they should be making more money vs. someone who is
crafting / doing a profession.

You feel then that the 3E rule for selling spells is vastly inflated,
or just that other than from passing adventurers there's so little
demand for spells that the local NPC casters can go weeks or months
between sales?

Mostly the latter, a bit of the former - in some instances. Having a
1st lv wizard cast mending is 5gp IIRC. That might be worth it in some
instances where you've got something fairly valuable, that can't be
replaced, or just repaired, but in the vast majority of cases it's far
cheaper to have stuff repaired or replaced. Sure if you broke a
masterwork sword, that's 105 gp you just saved over having a weaponsmith
repair it, but if you broke your kettle, you can buy a new one for
less. Masterwork swords being broken aren't an everyday thing. You are
talking about something maybe once a year - if people know you for it,
and come to you, and you happen to be available at the time... The
common stuff it's just not ecconomical with. Also remember the cost of
the spell casting is based on the caster's level as well, so say people
wanted a mending, they aren't going to go to some 10th lv wizard who's
going to charge them 50 gp for the spell, they will go to someone who's
1st lv and charges 5 gp.

For other spells than mending there's even less of a demand, with some
major exceptions I'd think, like wall of stone/iron, fabricate,
creations, etc. But you really need someone who's specialized in using
those spells. for walls you need someone with some sort of stonemason
craft or architechture proffession to use it to it's fullest extent - as
in building houses, bridges, etc. quickly. Same with fabricate - you
need a craft so that you can actually make an item with it.

Post by Shane

Post by Justisaur
So he wants to make money at 'profession wizard' use the rules and his
profession skill - probably 0. but an average check will earn him 5 gp a
week. Being an adveturing wizard he doesn't really know how to sell
himself properly, probably doesn't have the right spells, has better
known competition etc.

...
How do you figure that? That adventuring wizard might have six ranks in
Diplomacy and a Cloak of Charisma +4, own a spellbook thicker than a
titan's fist, and be known far and wide as the Wizard of Renton's Ford,
where he and three companions routed an orc horde intent on pillaging
the barony... okay he might instead be a novice who can't even toss a
cantrip right half the time, but I feel that was a rather blanket
statement. :)

He's not established no matter what. Sure he might be known for routing
an orc horde, but who's going to hire him for that? And if they did
that would be an adventure, not 'down time'. Meanwhile everyone knows
to go to Frekwor the Renewer when they need a mending spell cast.

Post by Shane
Hmm. Perhaps Diplomacy should give a synergy bonus to Profession (and
Craft?) checks.

Sounds reasonable. Diplomacy allows you to make people more open to
your ideas. If your idea hapens to be that they need you to cast
something for them, that should work. Gather information is another
candidate, lets you find people who need you to cast something.

After being shown the mercenary pay rates, I think I prefer those over a
profession check, as profession is supposed to be trained only anyway.
See my conversation in this thread with JB for the full info.

[JamesMcP]

Post by Shane
Okay, a PC has some downtime and decides he wants to do what NPC casters
presumably do - make a living off his magic. Enter the first stumbling
block: I found the bit about how much a NPC can make per spell cast, but
does it say anywhere how much the caster is likely to make per day or
week (or any other timeframe for that matter)?

No, because spells are a "special" commodity, much like bardic
performances. They are expensive and time/location sensitive meaning
it has a very limited market even amoung those able to afford it. It
amounts to a feast-or-famine kind of lifestyle, which is why NPC mages
also likely have a sage/craftsman sideline that provides a steady
income.

I would simply decide how much of a living these NPC city mages make
from casting spells and then give the players a significantly reduced
version. Meaning that if in a small town the only residant mage Mark
earns, on average, 500gp/yr from casting spells and your PC Paul is
going to be in town for 3 months, he probably won't earn more than
60gp. Why is that, when 3 months = 1/4 yr x 500gp = 125gp?

Well, first off the market is only 500gp/yr so every gp you give to
Paul comes from Mark. Mark has name recognition, an establishment,
and will likely begin applying some form of socio-political pressure
to maintain his income. Maybe he starts a few rumors implying Paul is
a less than reliable mage or that he is in cahoots with the unsavory
looking individuals that came to town last month and that it wouldn't
be the first time a wandering mage would identify magic items that
would mysteriously disappear the same night the mage left town.

Post by Shane
So a simple game mechanic would be nice. It'd also be good if we could
apply this mechanic to any PC, not just casters. So while Joe Mage takes
six months off to work for the mage guild, Jane Fighter could be serving
in the Royal Army as a King's Colonel, making just as much money... (or
a bit more or less depending on the dice, levels, situation, whatever).

If you want to do this, assign an income to all the PCs or just
handwave "you cover all your expenses and have a few coins left over
for a few small shiny things" and move on with life.

-James McP