Rend, Improved Grapple and Constrict question

[Sergio]

Am I understanding this correctly?

Troll
=====
Full Attack: 2 claws +9 melee (1d6+6) and bite +4 melee (1d6+3)
Special Attacks: Rend 2d6+9

So, a Troll, making a full attack against a character could:
- Claw (and hit) dealing 1d6+6 points of damage
- Claw (and hit) dealing 1d6+6 points of damage
- *Rend automatically* dealing 2d6+9 points of damage
- Bite (and hit) dealing 1d6+3 points of damage
dealing a total of 5d6+24 points of damage in that round.
(assuming no criticals were connected)

Assassin vine
=============
Attack: Slam +7 melee (1d6+7)
Special Attacks: Constrict 1d6+7, entangle, improved grab

So, an assassin vine, making a normal attack against a character could:
- Slam (and hit) dealing 1d6+7
- due to improved grab, automatically start a grapple
(proceeding directly to Step 3 of the grappling rules, SRD 3.5)
it makes an opposed grapple check trying to get a hold,
the assasin vine rolls this with a +12 bonus (assume it wins)
- deal constrict damage (no roll) 1d6+7 points of damage
- the assassin vine now has the option to move into the character space,
provoking attacks of opportunity, except from the attacked character
to mantain the grapple
(the 3.0 rules said that the attacker automatically moved the defender
into it's space, provoking attacks of opportunity, IIRC)

Thus, an assassin vine could deal a total of 2d6+14 points of damage in a round,
and possibly have the character grappled.

So, a troll (CR 5) could possibly deal 24 + 17.5 = 41.5 average damage.
An assassin vine (CR 3) could possibly deal 21 average damage.

These damages are very close to the average hit points of a fighter
of the same level as the CR of the creature, assuming no Con bonus.

So, repeating my opening question,
Am I understanding this correctly?

[Sergio]

Post by Sergio
So, a troll (CR 5) could possibly deal 24 + 17.5 = 41.5 average damage.
An assassin vine (CR 3) could possibly deal 21 average damage.
These damages are very close to the average hit points of a fighter
of the same level as the CR of the creature, assuming no Con bonus.

My mistake, a Fighter with no Con bonus average hit points:
Lvl 3 - 21 hit points
Lvl 5 - 32 hit points

[Matthew Miller]

Post by Sergio
Am I understanding this correctly?

[snip]

Post by Sergio
Troll
=====
Full Attack: 2 claws +9 melee (1d6+6) and bite +4 melee (1d6+3)
Special Attacks: Rend 2d6+9

[snip]

Post by Sergio
dealing a total of 5d6+24 points of damage in that round.

Assuming everything hits. If we assume the defender has an AC of 20 ('cause
that's easy), it's 2*((1d6+6)*.5) + (1d6+3)*.25 + (2d6+9)*.25, or 15.125
average damage. (Again, ignoring criticals.) Against an AC of 15, it's 26.5.
Still, quite a lot -- try not to let the thing get a full attack at you.


The assassin vine is more complicated.

Post by Sergio
Assassin vine
=============
Attack: Slam +7 melee (1d6+7)
Special Attacks: Constrict 1d6+7, entangle, improved grab
- Slam (and hit) dealing 1d6+7

Sure.

Post by Sergio
- due to improved grab, automatically start a grapple
(proceeding directly to Step 3 of the grappling rules, SRD 3.5)
it makes an opposed grapple check trying to get a hold,
the assasin vine rolls this with a +12 bonus (assume it wins)

Sure.

Post by Sergio
- deal constrict damage (no roll) 1d6+7 points of damage

Probably. Here we get into the poor wording of the grapple rules; I can see
a reasonable argument that the constrict damage is meant to only be
during successive rounds.

Post by Sergio
- the assassin vine now has the option to move into the character space,
provoking attacks of opportunity, except from the attacked character
to mantain the grapple
(the 3.0 rules said that the attacker automatically moved the defender
into it's space, provoking attacks of opportunity, IIRC)

Better than that. In 3.5, with improved grab, it *automatically* pulls the
opponent into its own space, with no attacks of opportunity from anyone. (I
think this was the same in 3.0, actually.)

Post by Sergio
Thus, an assassin vine could deal a total of 2d6+14 points of damage in a
round, and possibly have the character grappled.

So, not that much really. Getting grappled can be painful, though. Try not
to get caught by one of these things by yourself.

[snip]

Post by Sergio
These damages are very close to the average hit points of a fighter
of the same level as the CR of the creature, assuming no Con bonus.
So, repeating my opening question,
Am I understanding this correctly?

Approximately. There's other creatures with equivalent CRs which can do more
damage.

[Sergio]

Post by Matthew Miller
Assuming everything hits. If we assume the defender has an AC of 20 ('cause
that's easy), it's 2*((1d6+6)*.5) + (1d6+3)*.25 + (2d6+9)*.25, or 15.125
average damage. (Again, ignoring criticals.) Against an AC of 15, it's 26.5.
Still, quite a lot -- try not to let the thing get a full attack at you.

All right. Thank you very much.

Post by Matthew Miller
The assassin vine is more complicated.

<snip>

Post by Matthew Miller

Post by Sergio
- deal constrict damage (no roll) 1d6+7 points of damage

Probably. Here we get into the poor wording of the grapple rules; I can see
a reasonable argument that the constrict damage is meant to only be
during successive rounds.

I take that it can damage in the same round it hits because of:
(quoting from the SRD, TypesSubtypesAbilities.rtf)

Improved Grab:
<snip>
A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature
also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not
constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive
rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that
established the hold.
<snip>

Post by Matthew Miller

Post by Sergio
- the assassin vine now has the option to move into the character space,
provoking attacks of opportunity, except from the attacked character
to mantain the grapple
(the 3.0 rules said that the attacker automatically moved the defender
into it's space, provoking attacks of opportunity, IIRC)

Better than that. In 3.5, with improved grab, it *automatically* pulls the
opponent into its own space, with no attacks of opportunity from anyone. (I
think this was the same in 3.0, actually.)

You're right:
(quoting from the same source)

"When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls
the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of
opportunity."

Post by Matthew Miller
Approximately. There's other creatures with equivalent CRs which can do more
damage.

All right then, I thought that I was misreading the rules and ended up
with huge-damage-dealing-monsters.

Thanks.

[Matthew Miller]

Post by Sergio
(quoting from the SRD, TypesSubtypesAbilities.rtf)
<snip>
A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature
also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not
constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive
rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that
established the hold.
<snip>

Yeah, and I agree that this is what it means to say, but there's about
fifteen other interpretations depending on which words there are referring
to what and at what time they're meant to apply.

Post by Sergio
All right then, I thought that I was misreading the rules and ended up
with huge-damage-dealing-monsters.

Nah, huge-damage-dealing-monsters are part of the game.

[Michael Scott Brown]

Post by Matthew Miller

Post by Sergio
All right then, I thought that I was misreading the rules and ended up
with huge-damage-dealing-monsters.

Nah, huge-damage-dealing-monsters are part of the game.

So are huge damage dealing characters!

-Michael

[Michael Scott Brown]

Post by Sergio
Am I understanding this correctly?
Troll
- Claw (and hit) dealing 1d6+6 points of damage
- Claw (and hit) dealing 1d6+6 points of damage
- *Rend automatically* dealing 2d6+9 points of damage
- Bite (and hit) dealing 1d6+3 points of damage
dealing a total of 5d6+24 points of damage in that round.
(assuming no criticals were connected)

That would be the rather obvious implication of "if hits with two claw
attacks then rend", no?

Post by Sergio
Assassin vine
=============
Attack: Slam +7 melee (1d6+7)
Special Attacks: Constrict 1d6+7, entangle, improved grab
- Slam (and hit) dealing 1d6+7
- due to improved grab, automatically start a grapple
(proceeding directly to Step 3 of the grappling rules, SRD 3.5)
it makes an opposed grapple check trying to get a hold,
the assasin vine rolls this with a +12 bonus (assume it wins)
- deal constrict damage (no roll) 1d6+7 points of damage
- the assassin vine now has the option to move into the character space,
provoking attacks of opportunity, except from the attacked character
to mantain the grapple
Thus, an assassin vine could deal a total of 2d6+14 points of damage in a round,
and possibly have the character grappled.

Rather, *if* the vine gets the character grappled, it could inflict that
much (and does in subsequent rounds).

Post by Sergio
So, a troll (CR 5) could possibly deal 24 + 17.5 = 41.5 average damage.
An assassin vine (CR 3) could possibly deal 21 average damage.
These damages are very close to the average hit points of a fighter
of the same level as the CR of the creature, assuming no Con bonus.

So? Try factoring in how likely they are to *hit* before building your
threat matrix.

Post by Sergio
So, repeating my opening question,
Am I understanding this correctly?

Why on earth would you think that because a monster *can*, if it hits
with every attack and special attack it has, threaten a 10-Con Fighter with
death, you therefore don't understand what the rules are?

News flash - an Orc with a greataxe can kill a 1st level 10-Con Fighter
in one blow 33% of the times it hits (if 13 str).

Why not, next time around, make a post that gets right to your point: "I
think monsters are too scary!", instead of wasting our time thinking that
your question is about grab or rend?

-Michael

[Matthew Miller]

Yes unfortunately, at least for the troll. The asassin vine involves

A dire lion, also CR 5, does more maximum and more average damage than a
troll if it pounces. And that's without factoring in its much higher chance
to hit -- if you include that, we're talking something like *twice* as much
average damage. And I've still left out crits. Even more for the Weretiger.
A manticore's spikes can do 60 points within 180 feet (although it'll
probably be more like 17.5 on average).

Just 'cause it can kill you doesn't mean it should be higher than CR 5.

[Michael Scott Brown]

Post by Matthew Miller
Just 'cause it can kill you doesn't mean it should be higher than CR 5.

The issue, really, is whether the 5th level party can kill *it*. Weak
AC, no ranged attack ...

-Michael