Darkness vs. daylight vs. deeper darknes &c.

[Jasin Zujovic]

Suppose you have a deeper darkness spell and a daylight spell on the
same area. They negate each other, leaving the otherwise prevailing
light conditions in effect.

Now bring a continual flame spell in the area. My first instinct is that
it works, the deeper darkness having been negated by daylight.

Now introduce another deeper darkness. My first instinct is that it
doesn't work (continual flame's still on), because, just like the first
deeper darkness, it is in the area of a daylight spell, and is negated:
two deeper darknesses aren't more dark than one.

Now introduce a regular darkness. Does it work? My first instinct is
yes... because darkness is not negated by daylight. All the deeper
darknesses and daylights negate each other (however many there might
be), leaving the prevailing light conditions. Which is continual flame +
darkness = darkness.

But it seems kind of weird that the darkness has a greater effect than
another deeper darkness.

You could say that each daylight negates one deeper darkness and vice
versa, but it has the potential to lead into "ah, but the two 10th-level
clerics of Shar have cast 10 deeper darknesses each in the last 10 days
on their temple... you need *10* daylights to be able to see normally!"
sillyness.

[First Prophet of Kaos]

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Suppose you have a deeper darkness spell and a daylight spell on the
same area. They negate each other, leaving the otherwise prevailing
light conditions in effect.

Yes.

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Now bring a continual flame spell in the area. My first instinct is that
it works, the deeper darkness having been negated by daylight.

Ok.

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Now introduce another deeper darkness. My first instinct is that it
doesn't work (continual flame's still on), because, just like the first
two deeper darknesses aren't more dark than one.

My gut instinct is that the Daylight spell is negated by/negating the
first Deeper Darkness, and there's nothing to negate the second one.
The second one *is* effectively the 'prevailing light condition' after
the first is negated by Daylight. Or vice versa.

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Now introduce a regular darkness. Does it work? My first instinct is
yes... because darkness is not negated by daylight.

Hrm. Unless it changed in 3.5e, you've got that backwards; Daylight
is not negated by Darkness (unless cast as a 2nd level spell, in which
case they negate each other.)

Post by Jasin Zujovic
All the deeper
darknesses and daylights negate each other (however many there might
be), leaving the prevailing light conditions. Which is continual flame +
darkness = darkness.
But it seems kind of weird that the darkness has a greater effect than
another deeper darkness.
You could say that each daylight negates one deeper darkness and vice
versa, but it has the potential to lead into "ah, but the two 10th-level
clerics of Shar have cast 10 deeper darknesses each in the last 10 days
on their temple... you need *10* daylights to be able to see normally!"
sillyness.

I favour that one myself, as above, but that's because I tend to
presume most clerics (even of Shar) have better things to do than set
up multiple redundant Deeper Darkness effects in advance. At most, I
could see one tied to an Unhallow and a second regular one on top.

[Michael Scott Brown]

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Suppose you have a deeper darkness spell and a daylight spell on the
same area. They negate each other, leaving the otherwise prevailing
light conditions in effect.
Now bring a continual flame spell in the area. My first instinct is that
it works, the deeper darkness having been negated by daylight.

Sure.

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Now introduce another deeper darkness. My first instinct is that it
doesn't work (continual flame's still on), because, just like the first
two deeper darknesses aren't more dark than one.

A better instinct would be that spells with the same effects don't
stack.


-Michael

[Jasin Zujovic]

Post by Michael Scott Brown

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Now bring a continual flame spell in the area. My first instinct is that
it works, the deeper darkness having been negated by daylight.

Sure.

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Now introduce another deeper darkness. My first instinct is that it
doesn't work (continual flame's still on), because, just like the first
two deeper darknesses aren't more dark than one.

A better instinct would be that spells with the same effects don't
stack.

And I said... what?

The question is: suppose you have an overlapping area of deeper
darkness, daylight and continual light. Continual light is on, because
deeper darkness and daylight negate each other. What happens now if you
bring another deeper darkness into the area?

[Michael Scott Brown]

Post by Jasin Zujovic

Post by Michael Scott Brown
A better instinct would be that spells with the same effects don't
stack.

And I said... what?
The question is: suppose you have an overlapping area of deeper
darkness, daylight and continual light. Continual light is on, because
deeper darkness and daylight negate each other. What happens now if you
bring another deeper darkness into the area?

What about "do not stack" do you fail to understand? 2 deeper
darknesses is the same as one deeper darkness! 2 deeper darknesses + 1
daylight = 1 deeper darkness + 1 daylight = 1 deeper darkness + 2 daylight.


-Michael

[Jasin Zujovic]

Post by Michael Scott Brown

Post by Jasin Zujovic

Post by Michael Scott Brown
A better instinct would be that spells with the same effects don't
stack.

And I said... what?
The question is: suppose you have an overlapping area of deeper
darkness, daylight and continual light. Continual light is on, because
deeper darkness and daylight negate each other. What happens now if you
bring another deeper darkness into the area?

What about "do not stack" do you fail to understand? 2 deeper
darknesses is the same as one deeper darkness! 2 deeper darknesses + 1
daylight = 1 deeper darkness + 1 daylight = 1 deeper darkness + 2 daylight.

So... continual light is still on?

If you have a daylight spell and a continual light spell (or to better
illustrate my point, a light spell), there's no way to turn them both
off using darkness spells, no matter how many you use? Because daylight
negates any and all darknesses, leaving the other light spell active?

It feels a bit weird that a 3rd-level light spell and a 0-level light
spell "win out" against two 3rd-level darkness spells. Or one 2nd-level
and one 3rd-level darkness spell.

[Don Mac Phee]

Post by Jasin Zujovic

Post by Michael Scott Brown

Post by Jasin Zujovic

Post by Michael Scott Brown
A better instinct would be that spells with the same effects don't
stack.

And I said... what?
The question is: suppose you have an overlapping area of deeper
darkness, daylight and continual light. Continual light is on, because
deeper darkness and daylight negate each other. What happens now if you
bring another deeper darkness into the area?

What about "do not stack" do you fail to understand? 2 deeper
darknesses is the same as one deeper darkness! 2 deeper darknesses + 1
daylight = 1 deeper darkness + 1 daylight = 1 deeper darkness + 2 daylight.

So... continual light is still on?
If you have a daylight spell and a continual light spell (or to better
illustrate my point, a light spell), there's no way to turn them both
off using darkness spells, no matter how many you use? Because daylight
negates any and all darknesses, leaving the other light spell active?
It feels a bit weird that a 3rd-level light spell and a 0-level light
spell "win out" against two 3rd-level darkness spells. Or one 2nd-level
and one 3rd-level darkness spell.

The continual flame is running within the confines of the Daylight spell
that has been negated by the Deeper Darkness spell (also temporarily
negated).

You can't turn both off with a single application. You can counterspell the
Daylight (dispelling the Daylight with a Deeper Darkness or a Blacklight)
and then cast or bring out another Deeper Darkness (the first one is gone
with the Daylight spell) thereby reducing all the lesser light spells. In
this instance, two 3rd level Darknesses win out against the 0&3 Light
spells.

Of course, I'm mean... so you have to cast a Daylight, wander around with
that and a Detect Magic to find the source of the Deeper Darkness. You then
cast a Daylight spell (or Dispel Magic) targeted against the Deeper Darkness
item (rolling to dispel) to get rid of the effect, at which point a Magic
Mouth opens, and utters the command word to open the pit beneath the caster
full of acid and poisonous spiders (which is enchanted with a Deeper
Darkness and a Darkness spell) Two seconds later the large section of stone
falls from the ceiling into the pit crushing all. The zombies in the
ceiling then raise the stone back into place and close the pit. The Magic
mouth is in a blind hole, keyed to go off when the Darkness is dispelled.

Don't mess with my Darknesses damnit.

Likewise if you have a Deeper Darkness and a Darkness running along with a
Blacklight spell, a single Daylight doesn't get rid of all the effects
either.

[Hong Ooi]

Post by Jasin Zujovic

Post by Michael Scott Brown

Post by Jasin Zujovic

Post by Michael Scott Brown
A better instinct would be that spells with the same effects don't
stack.

And I said... what?
The question is: suppose you have an overlapping area of deeper
darkness, daylight and continual light. Continual light is on, because
deeper darkness and daylight negate each other. What happens now if you
bring another deeper darkness into the area?

What about "do not stack" do you fail to understand? 2 deeper
darknesses is the same as one deeper darkness! 2 deeper darknesses + 1
daylight = 1 deeper darkness + 1 daylight = 1 deeper darkness + 2 daylight.

So... continual light is still on?
If you have a daylight spell and a continual light spell (or to better
illustrate my point, a light spell), there's no way to turn them both
off using darkness spells, no matter how many you use? Because daylight
negates any and all darknesses, leaving the other light spell active?
It feels a bit weird that a 3rd-level light spell and a 0-level light
spell "win out" against two 3rd-level darkness spells. Or one 2nd-level
and one 3rd-level darkness spell.

Just attack the fucking darkness and be done with it, kthx.

[Senator Blutarsky]

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Suppose you have a deeper darkness spell and a daylight spell on the
same area. They negate each other, leaving the otherwise prevailing
light conditions in effect.
Now bring a continual flame spell in the area. My first instinct is that
it works, the deeper darkness having been negated by daylight.

I disagree. The deeper darkness and daylight spells
negate each other's effects, but both continue to
exist. Thus, the deeper darkness *also* negates the
continual flame, since it is an equal or lower-level
light spell.

-Bluto

[Don Mac Phee]

Gah...

The Deeper Darkness function that dispells AND negates really drives me
nuts. I would rule that the Deeper Darkness dispells OR negates a lesser
light like all the other bloody Evocation [Light] spells, depending on how
its cast (targeting a spell in a counterspell, or as an overlapping
condition)

With the exception of Flare and Blacklight, the Light spells and Darkness
spells fall under a simple set of rules.

No darkness or light condition stacks with a lesser condition of the same
type. A light in a Daylight spell, or a Darkness in a Deeper Darkness
renders one level of light/darkness.

A greater light negates all lesser darknesses, and likewise a greater
darkness negates all lesser light spells and effects.

A greater or equal light/dark spell can dispell ONE lesser or equal
dark/light spell.

When a spell is temporarily supressed (due to overlapping unlike conditions)
all overlapped conditions of BOTH spells are negated if they are of similar
level. (i.e. Lesser light conditions will exist in an overlapped area unless
they are supressed by a corresponding opposite.)

Light into Darkness (It's dark.)
Continual Flame into Darkness (It's the normal light condition (including a
Light spell if within the overlap))
Continual Flame into Blacklight (It's dark, except for the caster of the
Blacklight)
Daylight into Blacklight or Deeper Darkness (Its the normal light condition
(including a Light spell if within the overlap))
Daylight into Blacklight AND Deeper Darkness (UGH!) (The Blacklight
continues to function for the caster, but the prevailing light conditions
continue to exist for all others. So long as the Blacklight and Deeper
Darkness occupy the same area. If the Deeper Darkness and Blacklight no
longer overlap each other, but are overlapped by the Daylight spell, BOTH
darkensses are negated and the prevailing light condition exists. At this
point I'm measuring spell epicenters against each other.

Flare is negated by any functioning Dark spell.

Consider:

I with my Daylight spell, walk up to a caster with a Deeper Darkness. My
60' dim light ceases to function in the direction of the Deeper Darkness,
but continues to function until the epicenter of the light spell crosses
into the the Deeper Darkness, at which time both spells are negated. If I'm
also carrying a torch, the torch becomes the predominant light source within
my non-functioning Daylight and his non-functioning Deeper Darkness. He
then casts a Darkness spell, and it is dark around him, and light around me,
until we're within 20' of each other, at which time, my light goes out. I
unhood a Continual Flame, and the Darkness and Continual Flame negate each
other, and my torch works. He whips out another Darkness (They don't stack)
and nothing happens. I've had enough of this, I drop my torch and cast a
Teleport, removing myself from the area. The torch continues to burn, but
it's dark. Unfortunately for the caster in the Deeper
Darkness/Darkness/Darkness he's standing in a 15' pool of oil which ignites.
He can't see it, but it burns him until he leaves the area and runs smack
into a grue.

Also:

I'm the light maker for my temple.... I cast 3 times a day, continual flames
on various objects for use by the alcolytes in their studies. The temple
bedrooms are all in a Hallowed Darkness so the alcolytes can sleep at any
time of the day. To function in the room, the alcolytes must remove a
continual flame stick from their storage chests and cast their 0 level light
spell to study at night.

No stacked spell effects, just simple negated ones.

Post by Senator Blutarsky

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Suppose you have a deeper darkness spell and a daylight spell on the
same area. They negate each other, leaving the otherwise prevailing
light conditions in effect.
Now bring a continual flame spell in the area. My first instinct is that
it works, the deeper darkness having been negated by daylight.

I disagree. The deeper darkness and daylight spells
negate each other's effects, but both continue to
exist. Thus, the deeper darkness *also* negates the
continual flame, since it is an equal or lower-level
light spell.
-Bluto