Non-druid shapeshifters

[Jasin Zujovic]

Looking at the web enhancement for Urban Arcana which contains a d20
Modern shapeshifter class got me thinking: what are the options in D&D
for a shapeshifter who's not a druid? Especially, what are the options
for a shapeshifter who's primarily a warrior?

The closest thing I've seen to what I want is the OA's bear warrior. The
downside is it's, well... focused on bears. While it shouldn't be too
much of a problem to come up with appropriately powerful shapes for other
animals, I'd rather something that wasn't tied to a specific animal.
Something like a ranger with the druid's wild shape instead of something
else (say, spells).

Almost anyone could qualify for the shapeshifter from OA, but I seem to
remember (can't check right now) that it's a pretty blah class, serving
more as druid-equivalent in OA than anything else. Wildshape at pretty
much the same frequency as the druid, and some spellcasting (some 7
levels?). A warrior type could take it, but would be pretty hindered by
not having a casting class to advance. A divine caster would come out
very similar to the druid. Might be interesting for an arcane caster...

Anyone played the bear warrior or the shapeshifter? Experiences, advice,
comments? Suggestions for other shapeshifting classes? Suggestions on how
to balance the ranger if he's given druidic wildshape? What to take out?
I've never even got the chance to play a druid, so I can't really judge
how useful wildshape is.

[Courtney Love]

Jasin Zujovic ***@inet.hr wrote:

[snip]

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Anyone played the bear warrior or the shapeshifter? Experiences, advice,
comments? Suggestions for other shapeshifting classes?

My players have, at one point or other, played a druid, a bear warrior, and a
hengeyokai. My comments:

Druid = wildshape was only really useful as an escape/scouting option until
Large creatures became available. Then it became a good combat option as well.
Taking Natural Spell (or whatever the feat is called) made wildshape even more
effective.

Bear warrior = at first level, it wasn't that great. The average damage
actually went down compared to the two-handed sword, though the number of
attacks went up, for the black bear form. Scent turned out to be handy at 3rd
level, though, and when brown bear was attained at 4th level, Improved Grab
combined with the massive +16 Strength raise finally made the effort worth it
for him.

(Cat) Hengeyokai = was very, very handy for the character, who was a
rogue/sorceror. The ability to turn into something Tiny that could Hide and
Move Silently, then turn back to human or hybrid and flank for sneak attack
damage was used quite a bit. The damage healing from shapechanging also meant
that there wasn't so much need to use up the party's healing resources. The
only problem was that the hengeyokai, for some inexplicable reason, has to take
a full-round action to change shape, even though every other monster with the
shapechanger type (which a hengeyokai is) could change forms as a standard
action, allowing them to move as well. Heck, even druids who aren't natural
shapechangers can change as a standard action. For a +1 LA, I thought
hengeyokai should have been granted the same ability.

[Christopher Adams]

The only problem was that the hengeyokai, for some inexplicable reason,
has to take a full-round action to change shape, even though every other
monster with the shapechanger type (which a hengeyokai is) could change
forms as a standard action, allowing them to move as well. Heck, even
druids who aren't natural shapechangers can change as a standard action.
For a +1 LA, I thought hengeyokai should have been granted the same
ability.

I have read elsewhere the theory that little things like this are part of an
overall balance intended to slightly lower the magical feel of the setting.

--
Christopher Adams - SUTEKH Functions Officer 2003

Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrante.

[Talen]

It has been brought to my attention that Jasin Zujovic

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Looking at the web enhancement for Urban Arcana which contains a d20
Modern shapeshifter class got me thinking: what are the options in D&D
for a shapeshifter who's not a druid? Especially, what are the options
for a shapeshifter who's primarily a warrior?
The closest thing I've seen to what I want is the OA's bear warrior. The
downside is it's, well... focused on bears. While it shouldn't be too
much of a problem to come up with appropriately powerful shapes for other
animals, I'd rather something that wasn't tied to a specific animal.
Something like a ranger with the druid's wild shape instead of something
else (say, spells).

You headed me off at the pass, where I was going to mention the Bear
Warrior. Another option, however, is the Lion of Talisid from the book
of Exalted Deeds. Problem there is that it mandates you being good (no
skin off /my/ nose), and a ranger or a druid (so not too useful for
you).

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Almost anyone could qualify for the shapeshifter from OA, but I seem to
remember (can't check right now) that it's a pretty blah class, serving
more as druid-equivalent in OA than anything else.

By 'blah', you mean 'shite'.

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Wildshape at pretty
much the same frequency as the druid, and some spellcasting (some 7
levels?). A warrior type could take it, but would be pretty hindered by
not having a casting class to advance. A divine caster would come out
very similar to the druid. Might be interesting for an arcane caster...
Anyone played the bear warrior or the shapeshifter? Experiences, advice,
comments? Suggestions for other shapeshifting classes? Suggestions on how
to balance the ranger if he's given druidic wildshape? What to take out?
I've never even got the chance to play a druid, so I can't really judge
how useful wildshape is.

I've played alongside a bear warrior. She was /fun/. Azulia was pretty
much a classic barbarian who just had another ability to throw on top
of the rage. A more combat-and-utility-oriented shapeshifter would
have to be worked out than the Bear Warrior, who is really a
flavoursome rage option.

I'd probably start with the Lion of Talisid, drop the spellcasting
advancement, tinker with the prerequisites, and make the BAB full.
--
Talen

http://hypercrescendo.net/talen/

"My sword, my soul, my hamster, all of these I pledge to
Aerie, my new witch... HEAR THAT, EVIL? MINSC HAS A NEW
WITCH!! WOE IS YOU!!"
- Minsc

The Gurus love you

[Christopher Adams]

Post by Talen

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Looking at the web enhancement for Urban Arcana which contains a d20
Modern shapeshifter class got me thinking: what are the options in D&D
for a shapeshifter who's not a druid? Especially, what are the options
for a shapeshifter who's primarily a warrior?
The closest thing I've seen to what I want is the OA's bear warrior. The
downside is it's, well... focused on bears. While it shouldn't be too
much of a problem to come up with appropriately powerful shapes for
other animals, I'd rather something that wasn't tied to a specific
animal. Something like a ranger with the druid's wild shape instead of
something else (say, spells).

You headed me off at the pass, where I was going to mention the Bear
Warrior. Another option, however, is the Lion of Talisid from the book
of Exalted Deeds. Problem there is that it mandates you being good (no
skin off /my/ nose), and a ranger or a druid (so not too useful for
you).

The Warshaper from the Complete Warrior is available to those who can change
shape with Polymorph. The only other prerequisite is BAB +4, so an 8th-level
sorcerer or wizard (or fighter 1/wizard 7) can enter the class. Obviously, this
isn't primarily a warrior class.

If you don't mind taking an ECL, a doppelganger is an excellent choice. You can,
in fact, enter the class right off the bat with a doppelganger. A pixie would
work as well.

--
Christopher Adams - SUTEKH Functions Officer 2003

Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrante.

[Talen]

It has been brought to my attention that "Christopher Adams"

Post by Christopher Adams

Post by Talen
You headed me off at the pass, where I was going to mention the Bear
Warrior. Another option, however, is the Lion of Talisid from the book
of Exalted Deeds. Problem there is that it mandates you being good (no
skin off /my/ nose), and a ranger or a druid (so not too useful for
you).

The Warshaper from the Complete Warrior is available to those who can change
shape with Polymorph. The only other prerequisite is BAB +4, so an 8th-level
sorcerer or wizard (or fighter 1/wizard 7) can enter the class. Obviously, this
isn't primarily a warrior class.
If you don't mind taking an ECL, a doppelganger is an excellent choice. You can,
in fact, enter the class right off the bat with a doppelganger. A pixie would
work as well.

Aye. The Doppleganger's always a good option, in my mind, for a solid
brawler. You're behind on HP, but Alter Self is /so useful/.
--
Talen

http://hypercrescendo.net/talen/

"Name three things a cow can do which a carton of milk cannot
do" (3 marks)
- Actual GSCE Science Paper Question

The Gurus love you

[odigity]

Post by Christopher Adams
If you don't mind taking an ECL, a doppelganger is an excellent choice. You can,
in fact, enter the class right off the bat with a doppelganger. A pixie would
work as well.

Funny you should mention it...

I just started reading Savage Species and Monsters Manual I yesterday
for character ideas (slowly absorbing all this 3.0/3.5 stuff), and am
now working on a Doppleganger character. Some combination of Rogue
and Assassin, plus either Monk or Bard, not sure. Still trying to
capture the flavor properly. Right now my favorite idea is a
seductress, and Bard works with that, but the questions are a) how to
kill (poison? sneak attack? magic? bleeding wound?) when undercover,
and how to be useful during typical combat (like random encounters).

The ECL is so painful, though.

[Christopher Adams]

Post by odigity
Funny you should mention it...
I just started reading Savage Species and Monsters Manual I yesterday
for character ideas (slowly absorbing all this 3.0/3.5 stuff), and am
now working on a Doppleganger character. Some combination of Rogue
and Assassin, plus either Monk or Bard, not sure. Still trying to
capture the flavor properly. Right now my favorite idea is a
seductress, and Bard works with that, but the questions are a) how to
kill (poison? sneak attack? magic? bleeding wound?) when undercover,
and how to be useful during typical combat (like random encounters).
The ECL is so painful, though.

The ECL isn't as bad as you might think. Some races have a *Level Adjustment*
equal to the doppelganger's ECL 8 . . . with hit dice, besides. *That* is
painful.

At least with a doppelganger you get 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, which is
very like four levels of ranger (d8 HD, fighter BAB . . .). Any monster with an
ECL that includes HD is automatically less painful, because it helps obviate the
number one problem with ECL creatures, which is their lack of hit points.

--
Christopher Adams - SUTEKH Functions Officer 2003

Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrante.

[Imad Hussain]

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Anyone played the bear warrior or the shapeshifter? Experiences, advice,
comments? Suggestions for other shapeshifting classes? Suggestions on how
to balance the ranger if he's given druidic wildshape? What to take out?
I've never even got the chance to play a druid, so I can't really judge
how useful wildshape is.

Well, Polymorph's there for Wizards, Sorcs, and Clerics with the right
domain, but I've actually found Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed's Totem
Warriors to be pretty nifty.

As for Druid's I've found Wildshape only moderately useful for combat.
It seems quite powerful when you first gain it, but the utility of
Wildshaping decreases substantially between the time you can take the
form of a brown bear and the time you can take the form of an
elemental.

[Niilo Paasivirta]

Post by Imad Hussain
As for Druid's I've found Wildshape only moderately useful for combat.
It seems quite powerful when you first gain it, but the utility of
Wildshaping decreases substantially between the time you can take the
form of a brown bear and the time you can take the form of an
elemental.

Try adding Animal Growth spell on the shape, and /grapple/.

[Ubiquitous]

Post by Niilo Paasivirta
Try adding Animal Growth spell on the shape, and /grapple/.

Does the druid's creature type change to Animal while wildshaped now?
That could make things interesting...

[Justisaur]

Post by Ubiquitous

Post by Niilo Paasivirta
Try adding Animal Growth spell on the shape, and /grapple/.

Does the druid's creature type change to Animal while wildshaped now?
That could make things interesting...

IIRC it's Magical Beast.

[Donald Tsang]

Post by Justisaur

Post by Ubiquitous

Post by Niilo Paasivirta
Try adding Animal Growth spell on the shape, and /grapple/.

Does the druid's creature type change to Animal while wildshaped now?
That could make things interesting...

IIRC it's Magical Beast.

From the SRD 3.5:

"Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal
type. This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as
noted here." [and then nothing to limit the creature type under Druid;
higher levels expand it to include Elementals]


SRD 3.5's Polymorph entry includes:

"The subject's creature type and subtype (if any) change to match
the new form."


Donald

[Justisaur]

Post by Donald Tsang

Post by Justisaur

Post by Ubiquitous

Post by Niilo Paasivirta
Try adding Animal Growth spell on the shape, and /grapple/.

Does the druid's creature type change to Animal while wildshaped now?
That could make things interesting...

IIRC it's Magical Beast.

"Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal
type. This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as
noted here." [and then nothing to limit the creature type under Druid;
higher levels expand it to include Elementals]

IDRC. ISC.

Post by Donald Tsang
"The subject's creature type and subtype (if any) change to match
the new form."

There's conflicting info on that on in a couple places. DMG for one.

[Nockermensch]

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Looking at the web enhancement for Urban Arcana which contains a d20
Modern shapeshifter class got me thinking: what are the options in D&D
for a shapeshifter who's not a druid? Especially, what are the options
for a shapeshifter who's primarily a warrior?
The closest thing I've seen to what I want is the OA's bear warrior. The
downside is it's, well... focused on bears. While it shouldn't be too
much of a problem to come up with appropriately powerful shapes for other
animals, I'd rather something that wasn't tied to a specific animal.
Something like a ranger with the druid's wild shape instead of something
else (say, spells).
Almost anyone could qualify for the shapeshifter from OA, but I seem to
remember (can't check right now) that it's a pretty blah class, serving
more as druid-equivalent in OA than anything else. Wildshape at pretty
much the same frequency as the druid, and some spellcasting (some 7
levels?). A warrior type could take it, but would be pretty hindered by
not having a casting class to advance. A divine caster would come out
very similar to the druid. Might be interesting for an arcane caster...
Anyone played the bear warrior or the shapeshifter? Experiences, advice,
comments? Suggestions for other shapeshifting classes? Suggestions on how
to balance the ranger if he's given druidic wildshape? What to take out?
I've never even got the chance to play a druid, so I can't really judge
how useful wildshape is.

Here's an interesting shapeshifter concept:
aasimar/tiefling, go sorcerer (or wizard in tiefling's case) until you
can cast alter self. Alter Self allows you to "assume the form of a
creature of the same type as your normal form". This mean that these
OUTSIDERS have quite some interestign shapes to choose. Mephits seem
to be the best, giving you natural armor and fly with a second level
spell. Xills (natural armor 7, 40' land speed) aren't shabby either.

Things get even better with polymorph. Since "the new form may be of
the same type as the subject", there's some bad ass outsider forms
avaliable for the planetouched. My favorites thus far (I'm playing a
tiefling fig1/nec6/spellsword1/eldritch knight 1) are the lilend
(constrict, large), the red slaad (large, pounce, claws/bite), the
babau (2d6 sneak attack) and the avoral (trully sick flying speed,
claws).

Probably it's not what you're thinking, but something else to
consider.

[Jasin Zujovic]

Post by Nockermensch
aasimar/tiefling, go sorcerer (or wizard in tiefling's case) until you
can cast alter self. Alter Self allows you to "assume the form of a
creature of the same type as your normal form". This mean that these
OUTSIDERS have quite some interestign shapes to choose.

Oh yes. I've noticed that.

BTW, IYC, do you allow aasimar/tieflings to alter self into humanoids? I
probably would. It seems kind of weird that an aasimar (which is, more or
less, a human with some thin celestial blood) can alter self into a
lantern archon, but not a human.

Post by Nockermensch
Mephits seem
to be the best, giving you natural armor and fly with a second level
spell. Xills (natural armor 7, 40' land speed) aren't shabby either.
Things get even better with polymorph. Since "the new form may be of
the same type as the subject", there's some bad ass outsider forms
avaliable for the planetouched. My favorites thus far (I'm playing a
tiefling fig1/nec6/spellsword1/eldritch knight 1)

Warrior-mages are cool! Especially the new and improved Complete Warrior
warrior-mages.

Post by Nockermensch
are the lilend
(constrict, large), the red slaad (large, pounce, claws/bite), the
babau (2d6 sneak attack) and the avoral (trully sick flying speed,
claws).
Probably it's not what you're thinking, but something else to
consider.

True, I was looking for something more... natural. A guy who shifts into
an orc to get inside the orc camp, then into a dire wolf to kill the orc
warlord, then into an eagle to run away. Not really the weird freaky
shapes polymorphing outsiders get.

However, I've just noticed the hexblade gets polymorph. Very interesting.
Sure, it comes rather late to let you think of the character as a
"shapeshifter", but still interesting... fighter BAB, d10 and polymorph.
Make it an aasimar hexblade...

[Christopher Adams]

Post by Jasin Zujovic
True, I was looking for something more... natural. A guy who shifts into
an orc to get inside the orc camp, then into a dire wolf to kill the orc
warlord, then into an eagle to run away.

You really want Warshaper; for members of the class whose natural abilities
don't let them do this kind of thing, the 5th-level ability is Multimorph, which
does.

(Those Warshapers who already have that ability get Flashmorph, which allows
them to change forms more quickly.)

--
Christopher Adams - SUTEKH Functions Officer 2003

Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrante.

[Ubiquitous]

Post by Jasin Zujovic
Anyone played the bear warrior or the shapeshifter? Experiences, advice,
comments? Suggestions for other shapeshifting classes? Suggestions on how
to balance the ranger if he's given druidic wildshape? What to take out?
I've never even got the chance to play a druid, so I can't really judge
how useful wildshape is.

My druid has an Aranae cohort but he's pretty much kept in his gnome
form, the exception being the time the party had to escape a monster
by descending a chasm and he had to use his spider-hybrid form to climb
down. He's been leveling up as a Sorcerer, so he doesn't go into melee
often.

My druid rarely uses his wildshape ability either, for that matter. The
feat which allows one to cast spells in animal form wasn't available at
the time (depriving the party of 1/2 the party's spellcasting capacity)
and the animal forms weren't particuarly helpful from a combat POV. He
was forced to take on bear form at one point, however, because he needed
the hit points after this one particuarly nasty encounter to stabilize
the rest of the party.